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Dot Size w/ Matchdot II

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Dot Size w/ Matchdot II Empty Dot Size w/ Matchdot II

Post by 1319 12/30/2018, 12:04 pm

I’m looking for suggestions on dot size - I’m shooting consistently 815 out of 900 and, like everyone, trying to move up. I have been using a 4 MOA dot for SF, TF & RF.
Are there advantages to moving to a 2 MOA?
Do better shooters use a smaller dot?
Is their reason to use a 2 MOA dot for SF and a 4 MOA dot for TF & RF?
Thanks for any insight provided.

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Post by TonyH 12/30/2018, 1:49 pm

IMO, completely a personal preference. Shoot each size for a while and see if it makes a difference for you. For now I am shooting the 4 MOA, for SF and the 8 MOA for TF and RF and my scores have actually gone up. Was shooting 2 and 4 MOA previously. I have even tried and shot the 8 MOA for SF with good results. Indoors at 50', the 8 MOA covers about the 8-ring on a SF target. I don't personally think there is a magic formula for dot size..it's what work for you.
I am sure others here will chime in with their experiences and input.
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Post by dronning 12/30/2018, 2:50 pm

I've posted this on another thread.  I went from 4 to 2 and my scores really didn't change much but my X count went up about 25% as my groups did get smaller.  At the same time I changed my focus from the dot to the target which I believe also helped with the X count increase.  Most my lost points are due to muscle fasciculation (twitching) which I am making good progress on through diet and exercise.

-Dave
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Post by CrankyThunder 12/30/2018, 2:59 pm

I am not sure but in my case, I used a 2 moa dot for years and suffered from "Chicken Finger".  I switched to a 4 MOA dot and not sure if the dot size was the cure but do not have that problem any more.  I think that I was waiting for the perfect target picture and my trigger would freeze.  

With the 4 MOA dot the target picture is less precise such that I can concentrate on a proper trigger pull, ie, 

"Watch the Dot, Wait for Bang" technique.  

Regards, 
Cranky
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Post by Trigger71 3/25/2019, 11:34 pm

Ive read the numerous posts and surveys here and other sources, and have come to the conclusion that dot size is a personal preference.   What was interesting in the OP was changing dot size to course stage.  Others talk about changing from 25/50 distance, but what about using a different size for SF?

I tried experimenting with 2 moa SF and 4 TF/RF and not sure how my brain reacts to the change.   Too soon for me to tell for myself.  Also, perhaps this is over-complicating or trying to fix something that isn't broken.

I was hoping the thread was going to go off in that direction...maybe this bump with spark some discussion
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Post by DA/SA 3/26/2019, 6:42 am

dronning wrote:Most my lost points are due to muscle fasciculation (twitching) which I am making good progress on through diet and exercise.
Very interesting.

I have a slightly larger than the 10 ring wobble with an occasional uncontrollable sudden zip of the dot out of the black and back in a random direction. Quite annoying...

I'll be studying up on that. 

Thank You
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Post by willnewton 3/26/2019, 6:56 am

If you have astigmatism, then you will be fighting the 2 MOA dot as it “stars out”.  The 4 MOA keeps it’s circle shape better at higher brightness.

I really like my 4 MOA Aimpoint.  My 2 MOA Aimpoint is OK, but since I have astigmatism, I have some starring issues.  Also the 2 MOA dot makes my shake look even shakier.  Smile

I LOVE the MDII 6 MOA dot, as it always looks good and round without being huge.

I like the small body size of the Aimpoint and the dots on the MDII. In the end, I shoot both types, tending to use the MDII for outdoor (with polarizer sometimes) and Aimpoints for indoor. This is a good excuse to buy more pistols!

It is all about making your eye happy and relaxed with what it is seeing.
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Post by messenger 3/26/2019, 7:24 am

All my aimpoints are 4 moa. I wish they made 6 moa. I have two Pardini's and a Benelli with Matchdot II's. I run them with 6 moa. For me that's the perfect size. to get close to a 6 moa on the aimpoints I turn the brightness up. Yes, it turns the dot into a blob. I have two eye pal stickers on my glasses. I have them positioned so with both eyes open it appears that I'm looking out one hole and the bright "larger" dot is perfectly round.

Bill
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Post by tray999 4/6/2019, 7:55 pm

I shoot 2 moa and last time I shot, I turned down the brightness so the dot was very low and I shot a master score.   So was I just having a good day or did I concentrate more on the target then the dot.....   I don't really know myself, but next match I will have the dot low again Smile.
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Post by Ray Dash 4/6/2019, 8:23 pm

tray999 wrote:I shoot 2 moa and last time I shot, I turned down the brightness so the dot was very low and I shot a master score.   So was I just having a good day or did I concentrate more on the target then the dot.....   I don't really know myself, but next match I will have the dot low again Smile.
There are two camps on this subject, those that say to focus on the dot and those that say to focus on the target. I am one of the guys that has to focus on the target or I get caught up on chasing the dot and pulling shots. I try to use the smallest and dimmest dot that I can so I can focus past it. I would like to use a larger dot because it has less movement but I can't seem to get the larger dots dim enough for indoor shooting. Once it warms up a bit and I get back outside it may be a different story.
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Post by lablover 4/7/2019, 8:20 am

I have a 2 moa aimpoint..I have astigmatism and wish I had got the 4 moa dot.  The 2 stars on me as well and I find I’m always trying to clean up the shot.  A new aimpoint is not in the budget right now.
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Post by messenger 4/7/2019, 10:58 am

lablover wrote:I have a 2 moa aimpoint..I have astigmatism and wish I had got the 4 moa dot.  The 2 stars on me as well and I find I’m always trying to clean up the shot.  A new aimpoint is not in the budget right now.
 
Aimpoint no longer makes a 4moa dot. If you want 4moa you will have to search for a used one.

Bill
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Post by lablover 4/7/2019, 1:51 pm

Well swell
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Post by Dipnet 4/18/2019, 12:45 pm

I prefer a 2 MOA dot. Since this is supposed to be a precision game, large dots seem antithetical to the goal. For slow fire, I use the smallest intensity dot I can see. I think the smaller dot helps me maintain focus intensity. dipnet
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Post by Outthere 4/19/2019, 7:06 am

messenger wrote:
lablover wrote:I have a 2 moa aimpoint..I have astigmatism and wish I had got the 4 moa dot.  The 2 stars on me as well and I find I’m always trying to clean up the shot.  A new aimpoint is not in the budget right now.
 
Aimpoint no longer makes a 4moa dot. If you want 4moa you will have to search for a used one.

Bill
The 4 MOA versions are back in the catalog.
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Post by bullseye67 4/19/2019, 10:10 pm

Good evening,

I use MatchDot 2. I use the second smallest dot at the lowest setting on my Pardini. On my 45ACP I use the next bigger dot and the #3 power setting. I have tried changing dot size and power level(brightness) just fall back to those settings. That is shooting indoors at 20 yards. 
I find the smaller less intense dot easier to see through to the target. With the Pardini I am not or don’t have a lot of recoil recovery. So the dot never leaves the target. With the 45ACP recoil recovery is more and the bigger, brighter dot aids in getting back on target. Especially in the rapid rounds.

Have a HOPPY Easter!!
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Post by mikemyers 5/8/2019, 2:07 am

Ray Dash wrote:
tray999 wrote:I shoot 2 moa and last time I shot, I turned down the brightness so the dot was very low and I shot a master score.   So was I just having a good day or did I concentrate more on the target then the dot.....   I don't really know myself, but next match I will have the dot low again Smile.
There are two camps on this subject, those that say to focus on the dot and those that say to focus on the target. I am one of the guys that has to focus on the target or I get caught up on chasing the dot and pulling shots. I try to use the smallest and dimmest dot that I can so I can focus past it. I would like to use a larger dot because it has less movement but I can't seem to get the larger dots dim enough for indoor shooting. Once it warms up a bit and I get back outside it may be a different story.
The following is copied from https://www.bullseyepistol.com/zins.htm
Click the link to read the full article.

What stood out to me was:

I was taught to look at the dot as if it were the front sight of irons. As a young Lance Corporal on the Marine Corps Pistol Summer Team in 1990 I was approached by then Gunny Moody who said try this. "Next time you shoot slow fire, turn your dot down and instead of looking at the dot try looking at the target." Being a young Marine and not one to question a Gunny, I did it. I shot my first 100 slow fire at 50 yards with my .22. Part of the Team training was to share information with the rest of the team. The OIC (Officer in Charge) Capt. Belkes said, " Zins here shot his first 100 slow fire, tell everyone what was different and how you did it."
Oh boy! He didn’t like the answer when I told him I turned the dot down and looked at the target instead of the dot. As matter of fact his response was, “what the hell gives you the right to look at the target just because we put a $100 sight on your gun?!?!?” My answer was “The Gunny told me to do it sir.”

This was the beginning of a new thought process for the Team when it came to shooting dots. I know that we were taught to look at the front sight, I teach it, but the dot is a different creature all together. It is in essence a one point aiming device. Where as irons you have 2, a front sight and a rear sight. I know, "what about the target?" I am dealing strictly with the aiming process of the gun not the in relationship to the target at this point. So, we can aim the gun and then we can aim the gun "at" something. Does that make any sense at all? The difference between sight alignment and sight picture.

So it was pointed out in the iron sight post that a big problem is wanting to look at the target all the time. Well now you can and shoot well while looking a the target! It is only natural for us to wanna look at the target, after all that is why we struggle with iron sights. One of the first things as kids we were taught is how to throw something, well that and ” Don’t eat that!” When we were taught to throw a ball we were told to keep our eye on where we were throwing the ball. Shooting is merely a method of throwing an object, albeit faster than Nolan Ryan ever could have imagined, at a target.

I know it sounds easy right? Just go grab your guns and gear and head to the range and look at the target and shoot. Keep in mind like looking at the iron sight, we have to make sure that the focus stays on the target or on the dot. You have to pick one. If you have a hard time seeing the target at 50 yards look at the dot and stick to it. If you can see the target clearly at 50 yards give it try, but like I said you have to keep the focus on the target. The big problem with this is still the same, too often shots are breaking as the shooters eye is going back and forth from the target ot the dot and the shot breaks while the vision is in transition between 20 inches away, the dot, and 50 yards away, the target. That’s a big area to be looking at and yet focused on nothing at all.

Remember the article on trigger control? Well that once again comes back into play here. Trigger control needs to be started before the dot to target relationship reaches that perfect sight picture. If you have obtained perfect sight picture and there is no pressureon the trigger as soon as you start that pressure to the rear THE GUN IS GOING TO MOVE! So when the gun is presented to the target and the dot is in a place NEAR your AIMING AREA that is acceptable for you, continue the pressure to the rear. I say continue because there is already some pressure on the trigger already from when we established our proper grip. Right? As the pressure on the trigger builds the dot will begin to stabilize and move less until ultimately the shot breaks at the precise moment that perfect sight picture has been obtained. If only it were really that easy. It will take time. I wish I could find a pharmacist to make a pill to make it happen as esy as it sounds. But you will get there.


I thought I remembered Brian saying to look at the dot, not the target, as the dot is the only thing you can control, but what he writes up above sounds very convincing to me.

Seems to me that if you ARE concentrating on the target, not the dot, the dot size and shape would be less important.  
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Post by David R 5/8/2019, 6:08 am

I am working on this. It makes total sense. I have always set the dot so I could just see through it. Indoors it works great, outdoors, its not always an option. When looking at the dot, I seem to chase it around, Looking at the target, I shoot when it arrives. It works the same for me in sporter rifle. I shoot a 15X scope at 50 feet. I chase the + around the bull. I started looking at the target and squeezaing when I feel comfortable the + is not going to be any more steady which is within 3-5 seconds. My problem is I revert back to old habbits too easy. It takes a lot of work to change.

I have 3 minute Burris FF III and 8 minute. The 8 minute covers most of the 9 ring at 50 yards. Keeping it dim seems to help me relax.

Thanks for the information.
David
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Post by mikemyers 5/8/2019, 9:05 am

David R wrote:.......Looking at the target, I shoot when it arrives......
I guess I'm slow to learn.  Dave Salyer taught me over and over that when the dot "arrives" and a person takes the shot, it will no longer be aimed there when the gun actually fires. Just one more for the long list of things that I was sure were wrong at first.  

Maybe I'll get to where I can take the shot just BEFORE it arrives.    :-)
Gee, it sounds so simple when I'm in front of my computer.......
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Post by dronning 5/8/2019, 9:13 am

mikemyers wrote:I thought I remembered Brian saying to look at the dot, not the target, as the dot is the only thing you can control, but what he writes up above sounds very convincing to me.  
During Brian's clinic he very explicitly says when using a dot look at the target NOT the dot.  He gives the example of when you throw a football do you look at the football or where you are throwing it.  Turning the dot down also helps your eye from switching back and forth between the dot and the target.
- Dave
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Post by mikemyers 5/8/2019, 6:51 pm

(Any suggestions for a sight like the Aimpoint H1 and H2, where it has so many features, but lacks the ability to adjust the dot size?  The only way to make the dot "bigger" is to turn the brightness up. )
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Post by David R 5/8/2019, 7:59 pm

********************************************************************************************************************
I guess I'm slow to learn. Dave Salyer taught me over and over that when the dot "arrives" and a person takes the shot, it will no longer be aimed there when the gun actually fires. Just one more for the long list of things that I was sure were wrong at first.

Maybe I'll get to where I can take the shot just BEFORE it arrives. :-)
Gee, it sounds so simple when I'm in front of my computer...
**************************************************************************************************************************

You are totally right. I still hold my wobble zone and Squeeeeeze the trigger. I understand I am supposed to start before it gets there. Old habits are hard to change.

Looking at the target instead of the dot is a huge improvement for me. One step at a time. Always trying to improve.
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Post by mikemyers 5/8/2019, 8:57 pm

David R wrote:
.......I still hold my wobble zone and Squeeeeeze the trigger.   I understand I am supposed to start before it gets there.   Old habits are hard to change.....
In this case, not only is it a difficult habit to break, it's difficult for do it period  My mind is screaming at me to wait until I've finished aiming.  Since the 1970's, I've aimed, then fired.  That's before I "got educated" by this forum.  

It's like the idiot sueing Taurus - he couldn't get the magazine into his gun in his living room, so he loaded a full magazine.  It still wouldn't go in, so he grabbed the gun by the muzzle, and slammed the magazine harder.  The gun fired, through his hand, wounded his wife, and killed his son, and he blames Taurus.  How may rules did he break?  How could he ever be so stupid.  

I've got safety so burned into my brain that I can't break those rules, period.  I would never even think of doing so.   .............so, moving on, here I am starting to shoot before I've finished aiming.  My brain is screaming at me that I'm doing it wrong.  The only way I'll fix it is by doing it properly, regardless of where the hole ends up.  I figure it's the process I need to learn, and once I get that working, I can fine tune it.  I hope.  

Unless someone knows a better way, I need to start to ALWAYS start the trigger before the gun is aimed.  Eventually that will become my new "normal".  

(Anything is easy to do, once you know how to do it.)
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Post by Jack H 5/8/2019, 9:50 pm

"start the trigger before the gun is aimed"

When you say the above, do you have a definition for "aimed"?

To me the definition is achieving the sight picture I want when the shot breaks.  Even that will vary on different days, even during the day.  Whether we are looking at the front sight or the dot or the target does not matter.  A sight picture is a sight picture for that day, that lighting, that degree of vision when you forget your desired Rx glasses.  Under a variety of conditions any sight picture will have one constant.  That is what you see when you call the shot a 10 and it is a 10. 

I consider the above a bottom line mental thing more than a physical thing based on a changeable shot plan.
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Post by mikemyers 5/8/2019, 9:59 pm

Jack H wrote:"start the trigger before the gun is aimed"..............To me the definition is achieving the sight picture I want when the shot breaks......
My understanding is that if you achieve the perfect sight picture as the shot breaks, that is wrong.  As Dave explains it, what you see is "history".  It's "what was" at a moment in time.  If you wait for that, when the gun fires the hole will not be where you expect.

Others here can and have explained it better than I can, as I'm not good enough, but they say to fire as the wobble is moving into the desired point of aim.  By the time everything happens the aim will be right, along with the hole.  

That's what I meant by starting the trigger before the gun is aimed, and you fire just as the dot is moving into the area you want to hit, not when it gets there.

(As I understand it, it takes time for the eye to send the data to the brain, interpret the data, and then to control the gun to fire.  During that time, the dot will have moved past the area of aim.  You need to shoot before the dot gets there.....)



...........added later:
https://www.bullseyeforum.net/t8732-more-words-of-wisdom-from-dave-salyer#73334
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