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All will be revealed Grasshopper

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chopper
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Post by willnewton 1/6/2019, 7:28 am

Have fun learning on the forum, but transforming the lesson into action is what get you the results.    Laughing

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Last edited by willnewton on 1/6/2019, 4:28 pm; edited 1 time in total
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Post by lyman1903 1/6/2019, 8:01 am

very wise words
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Post by CR10X 1/6/2019, 4:07 pm

If you want to perform to your current limitations, then practice. If you want to exceed your current limitations, then train.

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Post by troystaten 1/6/2019, 7:13 pm

Love it.

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Post by weber1b 1/6/2019, 8:07 pm

CR10X wrote:If you want to perform to your current limitations,  then practice.  If you want to exceed your current limitations,  then train.  
Truer words were never spoken. I did not know the difference early on. I still have to remind myself at times.

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Post by thessler 1/7/2019, 6:07 am

I still can't figure out the difference.

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Post by willnewton 1/7/2019, 7:29 am

thessler wrote:I still can't figure out the difference.

I will take a stab at elaborating Cecil’s comparison.

Training is dry firing, exercising, watching your food intake, reading the rule books, learning the ins and outs of your equipment, getting your mental game together, attending workshops, air pistol training, SCATT, experimenting with new techniques, etc.

Pretty much everything you do off the range, except shooting a target.

An example of practice is putting your training to use at the range while shooting a 30-round match in a non-competition environment.

Match day is just replaying the good shots from practice. Wink

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Post by CR10X 1/7/2019, 4:15 pm

Practice is just that, practice and is what most people do at the range.  Shooting, (hopefully following a process) and seeing the results.
But I'll bet most people can't tell you what their first, 5th, or 13th shot looked like, was it on call, etc. etc.  No evaluation, no feedback, no comparison, no breaking down shooting into its components. (And there are lots of them.)

Willnewton, made a good start for off the range and non dryfiring stuff;  but more specifically:  

Training is finding each component and then determining how well that component is being performed, how much impact is it having on the outcome, does it warrant changing, and if so what it need to improve that component.  That cannot be done sending off 15 or 30 or 50 rounds downrange or dryfiring for 25 minutes without some serious evaluation and thought between each one of those shots.  

Then the evaluation will lead you to understand that you need to see the dot completely through the shot, your grip was weaker at the end of the string, you jerked the trigger on shot number 4 trying to play catchup, etc. etc.  Then think about the one thing that would make the most difference

Then you will have a plan for the next training session.  And for each session (live fire or dry fire), you are only focusing on only ONE thing to see, understand and feel how that one thing is working and being performed.  Doesn't matter if its absolutely consistent trigger operation within 5 to 6 seconds, absolutely consistent grip pressure, complete focus on (target, dot, top of front sight), seeing the entire wobble process through the sights rising, taking exactly the same stance and lowering of sights to the target, etc. etc.  Whatever youj came up with will be the focus and the one thing to work on to the exclusion of everything else.  And its not the group on the target that is the measure, but how well each and every repetition was performed.  The group will eventually speak for itself. 

And everything goes into the journal.  Area to work on, goal for that session, how many times were you successful at that ONE thing, what was distracting, what increased focus, etc. 

Most shooters really need to start training with actually seeing and more importantly, WATCHING the sight (dot, front sight) in order learn how each individuals wobble starts and progresses with respect to the acceptable aiming area (not some specific point of aim!).  Train to see the wobble and you will see it will generally have some basic pattern.  In general, if you are lucky enough to be one of the few that can see the wobble stop, then you just missed the time to have completed the trigger process. 

The you will begin to feel comfortable with when the wobble is still getting smaller.  And that with then be the step to start training on getting the trigger to operate (without introducing more wobble) before the wobble starts getting larger.   

Anyway, don't mean to ramble, but remember that the future champions of every sport work on the individual components more than the complete process, every day.  

I will tell you that there were lots and lots of days at the range, and still are, where the total round count for couple of hours is less than 20.  (Sometimes much less)  But there was lots of dryfiring, evaluation, and thinking. 

And if your first shot is a X, then spend a considerable amount of time trying to remember and write down everything you experienced.  You can tell a Master from a Marksman by which shots they spend their time looking at on the target.  The Marksman focuses and points out his bad shots to everyone that will listen, the Master says look at all those 10s to himself.

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Post by willnewton 1/7/2019, 6:03 pm

CR10X wrote:Anyway, don't mean to ramble

Cecil, keep ramblin’ on. You make posts at the same level you shoot BE. Wink
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Post by chopper 1/7/2019, 11:13 pm

What a great topic, and really outstanding advice on training and practice. I'm still trying to perfect my fundamentals like most shooters in my class, but have never written anything down into a journal or anything. I think it's time to write that stuff down. I'm just starting to call my live shots after doing it in my dry firing time using my dot, I can't nail down the ring, mostly the area right now. 
  I've never had formal training, this forum is the best, and all I have to do is work it. Thank you guys.
 I'm going to have to save these posts and topics some way to reflect on.
Stan

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Post by thessler 1/8/2019, 6:22 am

Wow great info, thanks for rambling. This is a big source for my training also.
For a relatively new shooter there is a tremendous amount to learn.  I'll keep at it and hopefully keep learning. 
Thanks, Tom

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Post by Clamps 1/12/2019, 6:13 am

One of my favorite threads. Thank you willnewton and CR10X for elaborating

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Post by CR10X 1/12/2019, 7:55 am

Thanks for the comments.  But remember, this is the same process that every football, basketball, baseball, etc team member goes through if they are working under a good coach.  What the players thought were just drills or exercises or just plain endurance tests or punishment, were probably geared toward specific components needed for that sport. A good coach was watching each player's ability for each of those core drills or exercises and finding the focus areas to help that player improve.  

It's just that we have never really taught most people how to shoot from the basics up in any type of organized and structured manner, that really focuses on the components.  Actually, Robbie's video that mikemyers posted in another thread, which Robbie started talking about and incorporating in his training programs years ago by the way, is a perfect example of a specific training exercise (really learning how to operate the trigger - so you can really learn how to use the sights).  This is because most people already have a massive flinch and blink and jerk before they ever decide they want to learn how to hit a target.  So its an uphill battle for a lot of shooters when they want to try shooting bullseye.  So, he is promoting a specific training exercise, learning how to operate the trigger correctly and consistently.

OK, enough of that.  On to the next step.

As a shooter trains on specific items, it can get boring.  Let's face it work is hard.  So the shooter just needs to plan and schedule a specific training day for just shooting. That is the PRACTICE day.  Go to the range and set up just like a match (Slow Fire Match, NMC, 900 Agg, whatever).  Set up the targets, equipment, guns ammo, etc. just like a match.  Three minute prep period (no sighters) and just shoot a match.  BUT, leave every expectation, training idea, etc. in the parking lot.  Just shoot, follow the process and relax.  The goal is to get in the flow and experience the process that the shooter has been working on.  Not judging the value of the shoots or much of anything else at this point, but working on maintaining the process.  This is practice.  You are not judging shots, just following the the process.  (This Practice is actually training for shooting a match by the way.) 

Then, when you are finished (but not before), you can review and evaluate the practice day.  How well was the process followed? (Is more work needed to ingrain the process or reduce distractions?) How did it feel up on the line and shooting?  (Nervous, anxious, shaking like a leaf in the wind?  Check out training on mental management, need a relaxation key word or phrase or song, need X repetitions of dryfring before live fire, etc.?)  How was the position, grip and alignment when you finished shooting?  (Was is different that when you started?  Was the flow better or worse in that position or do you need more consistency - back to specific training area?).  Etc, etc.  Basically review the practice session when you are done and record everything you can think of.  Now you have a list of specific training items for upcoming training sessions.   

(The hardest part of practice or shooting matches is learning how to NOT try and fix things during the shooting, but remembering and recording the feelings and ideas afterwards.  I've found that you can't fix things (other than equipment) or train when practicing or at a match.  That is a bad feedback process.  It induces too much anticipation, nervousness, butterflies, frustration, or whatever you want to call it. Why would you want to train on learning how to be nervous, get frustrated or shake more?  Just follow the process when practicing or match shooting, separate yourself from the present, and evaluate later.) 

And now you may be able to see why I repeatedly focus on the difference and the very big distinction (for me) between "Practice" and "Training".  For me, you can't do one when you are doing the other.  From my perspective, the concepts are similar as they are both part of becoming a better shooter, but completely different in the actions and process.  (I thing of it something like: training = specific focus item and practice = total process)  

Anyway, you see the idea.  Shooting well and accurately requires a tremendous amount coordination of a lot items, physical, mental, external, internal, etc.  Just like any other sport, its a continuous feedback loop of training, performance, evaluation and training.

(Sorry for the long post, have a bad cold and can't really do anything else but type right now. Good luck and good shooting.)

CR

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Post by DA/SA 1/12/2019, 8:57 am

Somewhere I saw a comment from Brian Enos to the effect that the only thing that matters is your "cold" performance, and it made a lot of sense to me, especially since I decided to give this "Precision Pistol" shooting a try.

From reading CR's last post, I may be on the right track, as what I do is walk up, unpack, set up  and shoot ten rounds slow fire, followed by ten timed fire, and ten rapid fire. No spotting scope, just set up and shoot. My vision is fortunately bad enough to where I am unable to see hits on the target so I don't psyche myself out by seeing a bad shot. I then gather up the targets, examine them, and then determine what I need to work on that particular day and go into "training" mode and work on dry fire and specific fundamentals. 

I'm only about three months into shooting every Sunday and I am seeing steady improvements with every range day. It would be easy to shoot a bunch of practice and then shoot three pretty good "match" targets, but in my opinion the three "cold" targets tell the real story.

If it wasn't for this forum I never would have embarked on this journey or been able to learn so much in such a short time.

Thank you all!
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Post by Clamps 1/12/2019, 9:23 am

"If it wasn't for this forum I never would have embarked on this journey or been able to learn so much in such a short time.

Thank you all!"
 
 I also would like to take a moment to curse the SOB that took time one morning several months back to answer my questions about bullseye pistol. He still takes an interest every time we happen to meet at the range. I'm certain that he goes home and chuckles at the odyssey he sent me on.....

 I'm now gun poor and generally more frustrated than I've been in years. 

 But determined despite the odds.

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Post by Wobbley 1/12/2019, 9:26 am

I would suggest, since the technology is relatively inexpensive now, is to record your impacts and write down your calls and impressions during your strings of fire.  Do this after every shot slow and after each 5 shots during sustained.  By the clock or just by High, right, etc.  that way your target will make more sense.  Pretty soon you’ll be able to “see” the value as well as the location.
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Post by CR10X 1/12/2019, 4:21 pm

I do recommend calling every shot (dry fire or live fire) as part of the shot process even when training on other specific things. During live fire, I do recommend scoping to confirm the call (not to locate the shot.)  This is all part of the process to learn to see what is happening, not just a snapshot that you think might be at the time of the shot.

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Post by tceva 1/13/2019, 7:22 am

Cecil,  I have been using one of those MantisX training aids during dry fire.  The other day my battery went dead.  I figured that nobody had these things prior to a couple of years ago, so lets have at it.  While the input from the Mantis made dry firing a bit more tolerable I felt it changed the objective.  Immediately I was calling shots and putting the gun down when my process was not quite right.  Training aids have their place, but I would warn about over use and relying on external information.  The important stuff is happening between you ears.
Alex
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