Looking for help reloading 9mm.

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Looking for help reloading 9mm.

Post by jlow on Sun Jan 06, 2019 9:36 pm

First topic message reminder :

First of all, new to the board and I am not a bullseye shooter but I am here because I know you guys can be a wealth of knowledge so I am hoping you can help me.

The gun I am reloading for is a SIG MPX PCC pistol.  This is a semi-auto with an 8” barrel. 

I have over 10 years of experience doing precision reloading but only for centerfire rifles, so a lot of the things we do like annealing, turning necks, etc. do not translate to pistol reloading.  In terms of pistol reloading, I have done many tens of thousands of rounds but they are plinking and not precision ammo.

Currently my load is what I use for my handgun - range pickup brass, Rem 1 ½ primers, 3.2 grain of Tightgroup, COAL 1.147", and 147grain Precision Delta FMJ.  This load shoots reasonable in my PCC i.e 3-4” groups at 50 yards.  What I am hoping is to shrink it down to a consistent 2” group.

Looking at an article from Accurateshooter.com on precision handloading, I realize that I need consistent brass – to that end, I have sorted my brass by headstamp.  Currently using FC since I have a lot of that.

I also see the importance of optimizing taper crimp – to that end, I am using a Hornady adjustable taper crimp die and have done optimizing studies looking at different degree of crimp.

I see the importance of uniform COAL – to that end, I have started to uniform my sized cases using a Lyman case trimmer.  This is where my main question is:

1)      Is trimming brass to consistent COAL a good idea for precision?

2)      If you trim, is chamfer/deburr (which is required for rifle brass trimming) a good idea?

3)      Is trimming slightly shorter than SAAMI a bad idea?

Of course any additional suggestion as to pitfalls of what I am currently doing would be appreciated.  I realized that I am not using dedicated brass, optimal powder/brass/bullet for absolute precision, but at least at present, I am looking for ideas of what I can do to optimize the current load.

jlow

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Re: Looking for help reloading 9mm.

Post by 9146gt on Sun Jan 13, 2019 11:12 am

Plunk and twist test is probably the most important test on a PCC style gun...many have a short feebore.
Tom

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Re: Looking for help reloading 9mm.

Post by jlow on Sun Jan 13, 2019 2:06 pm

I have done the plunk and twist test, and this gun has a very long freebore, long enough that I could not reach it with a really long load.  I asked this question here and received a good response here:


https://www.bullseyeforum.net/t11217-sig-mpx-9mm-barrel-plunk-test-strange-results?highlight=strange

jlow

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Re: Looking for help reloading 9mm.

Post by jlow on Sun Jan 13, 2019 8:32 pm

I have done some research on the Hodgdon website and found a load for 115gr Speer Red dot JHP which I presume is close to the Zero's 115gr JHP.  Looks like they recommend a COAL of 1.125" and titegroup range betwee 4.5gr (low) to 4.8gr (max) for an MV between 1,135 and 1,258fps.

Anyone use something like this and I wonder how well that works?

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Re: Looking for help reloading 9mm.

Post by AHI on Sun Jan 13, 2019 10:40 pm

Delite


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Re: Looking for help reloading 9mm.

Post by AHI on Sun Jan 13, 2019 11:31 pm

delete


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Re: Looking for help reloading 9mm.

Post by jlow on Mon Jan 14, 2019 9:11 am

AHI thanks for writing in.  A couple of points.

1)      The MPX always had a 16” barrel option. AFAIK, the new PCC version is only different barrel wise by having the barrel being 16” when the comp is removed.

2)      I am sure there are other PCC and other bullets with good precision but that does not help me.  I am looking specifically for reloading information for Zero 115gr JHP for a SIG MPX.

jlow

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Re: Looking for help reloading 9mm.

Post by AHI on Mon Jan 14, 2019 10:03 am

delite


Last edited by AHI on Mon Jan 14, 2019 8:18 pm; edited 1 time in total

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Re: Looking for help reloading 9mm.

Post by jlow on Mon Jan 14, 2019 10:10 am

Maybe they changed the rifling but there is nothing in their announcement to suggest that.  Regardless there is nothing I can do to change that.

I have my barrel and I have the Zero's on order so at least in the short term, I have to work with that.

Will try what you suggested if I don't get any more info.  Thanks.

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Re: Looking for help reloading 9mm.

Post by jlow on Sat Jan 19, 2019 10:48 am

Just want to give thanks to those who suggested trying the Zero 115gr JHP.

Well I went out yesterday in the cold and did a powder weight charge study with the Zero 115 gr JHP using Titegroup - pretty happy!  Got two charge that gave me sub 2" 5 round groups at 50 yards.   Best group was 1.8"!
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Re: Looking for help reloading 9mm.

Post by SmokinNJokin on Sat Jan 19, 2019 3:38 pm

I really think a zero 125 or 147 jhp will show even better results with your barrel twist rate. I would also recommend you test with 10 or 20 shot groups, they will be bigger but I think they will give you a lot more telling info.

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Re: Looking for help reloading 9mm.

Post by jlow on Sat Jan 19, 2019 3:49 pm

That may be so but the practical side of things is I really do not need sub-MOA groups for what I need this gun for.  So no real need to go to the n th degree in terms of precision.

Just to reiterate, these will be used for 2-gun matches.  Currently I shoot an AR with Russian steel case ammo that groups about 3-4" at 100 yards.  Last weekend, shooting the AR, I was ranked 6th but with the lest number of points down - 13.  So if my PCC can shoot as well, it is all I need.

FWIW, when I brought the bullets, I told the folks there what I was using the bullets for and they said that the most accurate bullet in their hands was the 115gr JHP.

jlow

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Re: Looking for help reloading 9mm.

Post by Asa Yam on Sun Feb 03, 2019 4:25 pm

jlow wrote:Going transonic and affecting bullet stability is a well known phenomena in precision rifle.  A classic example is shooting Sierra Match King 168gr .308 bullets at extended ranges i.e. 1K - not recommended because of this specific phenomena.
There are examples of Sierra bullets being used in long range applications, despite passing through the transonic range:

  1. 1000+ yard competition, .308 Winchester cartridge.  Bullet of choice:  190 Sierra;
  2. "Cooper's Challenge":  Shoot 20 bullets into a 20" circle at 1000 yards, in 20 seconds.  First broken by an AR-15 and Black Hills 77 grain loads.  See https://www.dlsports.com/signature_firearms_ar15.html for more details;
  3. US Army M-24 Rifle, Iraq, September, 2005.  1250 Meter hit on an insurgent.  Ammo used:  M118LR (175 grain Sierra load).  Yes, it was a kill.  https://www.americanrifleman.org/articles/2013/9/12/advances-in-us-sniping-ammunition-from-vietnam-to-afghanistan/


It should be noted the 168 Sierra was never designed as a long range bullet, but rather as a projectile for 300 meter competition.  According to research by the US Army, the projectile is dynamically unstable, and can stop flying point-first BEFORE going transonic.  When fired from a .308 Winchester around 2650 FPS, this occurs sometime after 900 yards.  Sierra's current (post- Sedalia, MO production) 180 grain .30 caliber bullet reportedly shows similar behavior.

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Re: Looking for help reloading 9mm.

Post by jlow on Sun Feb 03, 2019 6:11 pm

Asa Yam wrote:
jlow wrote:Going transonic and affecting bullet stability is a well known phenomena in precision rifle.  A classic example is shooting Sierra Match King 168gr .308 bullets at extended ranges i.e. 1K - not recommended because of this specific phenomena.
There are examples of Sierra bullets being used in long range applications, despite passing through the transonic range:

  1. 1000+ yard competition, .308 Winchester cartridge.  Bullet of choice:  190 Sierra;
  2. "Cooper's Challenge":  Shoot 20 bullets into a 20" circle at 1000 yards, in 20 seconds.  First broken by an AR-15 and Black Hills 77 grain loads.  See https://www.dlsports.com/signature_firearms_ar15.html for more details;
  3. US Army M-24 Rifle, Iraq, September, 2005.  1250 Meter hit on an insurgent.  Ammo used:  M118LR (175 grain Sierra load).  Yes, it was a kill.  https://www.americanrifleman.org/articles/2013/9/12/advances-in-us-sniping-ammunition-from-vietnam-to-afghanistan/


It should be noted the 168 Sierra was never designed as a long range bullet, but rather as a projectile for 300 meter competition.  According to research by the US Army, the projectile is dynamically unstable, and can stop flying point-first BEFORE going transonic.  When fired from a .308 Winchester around 2650 FPS, this occurs sometime after 900 yards.  Sierra's current (post- Sedalia, MO production) 180 grain .30 caliber bullet reportedly shows similar behavior.
Thanks.  I am aware of all these things as I am a precision reloader for long range centerfire competitions.

jlow

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Re: Looking for help reloading 9mm.

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