Long site radius harder to shoot?

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Long site radius harder to shoot?

Post by kjanracing on 1/7/2019, 8:54 pm

Read in another thread, thought I’d post it here.
22's are inherently very accurate and forgiving. I recommend 4.5 or 5" barrel. There will not likely be an accuracy difference and the longer sight radius actually makes it harder to shoot. “
Why? Discuss?
Kurt 
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Re: Long site radius harder to shoot?

Post by Jon Eulette on 1/7/2019, 9:10 pm

Longer sight radius is easier to shoot.....think rifle;)
Shorter barrel more forgiving to shoot because of less barrel time for the bullet....radial velocity isn’t your friend.
Jon
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Re: Long site radius harder to shoot?

Post by CR10X on 1/7/2019, 9:19 pm

A longer sight radius will have a larger apparent movement of the front sight (when shooting open sights) but longer does allow for more precise alignment (or really the ability to see the misalignment due to the longer radius)..  

Pistol accuracy is not very dependent on barrel length.  (I've seen 4 inch barrel revolvers out shoot a number of 6 inch revolvers in a Ransom. Same for 5 versus 7 inch model 41s.  It's just a matter of ammo, specific barrel variables and just plain probability.  Longer does not mean better in terms of actual accuracy.)

A shorter sight radius makes slight misalignment harder to see (and we're talking thousandths of a inch here), but the wobble is not as apparent, allowing a more consistent trigger operation (less hesitation and "picking off" the shot).

So, everyone is searching for the best combination of longer radius (for more sighing precision) versus having so much movement that it screws up the trigger process. 

Most people tend to find 5 to 6 inch barrels (about 7 to 9 inches of sight radius) an appropriate range.  Some like the shorter end of that range, other like the longer end.    For more supported position shooting with open sights, longer is definitely better in terms of useful sight radius.

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Re: Long site radius harder to shoot?

Post by SteveT on 1/8/2019, 10:52 am

The original quote was from me. I couldn't have said it better than Cecil.
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Re: Long site radius harder to shoot?

Post by bruce martindale on 1/8/2019, 11:43 am

Like Jon said.  Potential for better aiming offset by barrel time errors: usually an angular error introduced pre and post ignition. One by trigger induced motion other by grip error, sympathetic motion of other fingers. Then there is inconsistency in grip changing pointing during recoil itself.  Hard grip hits different place from a soft grip.  All this has nothing to do with sights or precision of aim.

See the you tube video " Aiming is Useless"

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Re: Long site radius harder to shoot?

Post by bruce martindale on 1/8/2019, 11:46 am

My post was from yesterday but got hung up somehow.  Shorter barrels also balance well although l feel the model 41 5" is kinda heavy...

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Re: Long site radius harder to shoot?

Post by WesG on 1/8/2019, 3:03 pm

<2/10,000 of a second?

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Re: Long site radius harder to shoot?

Post by bruce martindale on 1/8/2019, 4:31 pm

When you're moving? Yup

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Re: Long site radius harder to shoot?

Post by Jon Eulette on 1/8/2019, 4:48 pm

Having shot longslides for 20 plus years and many other long 6” barreled pistols including free pistol, I can tell you it’s much easier to shoot 5” barrels on the long line. A mistake with a longslide will cost you another scoring ring at 50 yds if not two of them. You can actually feel it in the recoil and see it on paper afterwards. 
So that tiny difference in barrel time can kick your butt if you’re not paying attention.
Jon
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Re: Long site radius harder to shoot?

Post by kjanracing on 1/8/2019, 9:32 pm

So maybe a 5” barrel with extended front sight is optimal?
Kurt
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Re: Long site radius harder to shoot?

Post by Jon Eulette on 1/8/2019, 10:56 pm

Kurt, the most beautiful SF I’ve seen with a 45 was shot with setup like that. 100-8x......all solid X’s. Shot by Jerry Wilder USAR/Nat’l Team member.
Jon
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Re: Long site radius harder to shoot?

Post by SmokinNJokin on 1/9/2019, 1:59 am

Didn't Herschel Anderson set the all time record with that setup as well?

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Re: Long site radius harder to shoot?

Post by 10sandxs on 1/9/2019, 6:43 am

Jon, I'm considering building a longslide, since you shot them for a long period, why did you stay with them, and do you shoot them still? I started with a Kimber 20+ years ago and went to a rock river longslide, then to a 5" caspian component gun, I still like the long slide better, but have a hard time explaining why...

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Re: Long site radius harder to shoot?

Post by Jon Eulette on 1/9/2019, 10:03 am

I prefer the longslide felt recoil. When I’m on my game I love it, the 5” just never ‘feels’ as good. But the 5” scores on a regular basis are slightly higher for me on average.
So it’s always a darn what pistol am I going to shoot at the next match? I shoot Aimpoint Micro on small rib so the pistol cycles faster and doesn’t have the longslide clunk/chug feel to it.
I loaned my buddy my longslide and he shot an 886 with it. He was on that day Wink
Jon
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Re: Long site radius harder to shoot?

Post by JKR on 1/9/2019, 2:09 pm

Jon Eulette wrote:Kurt, the most beautiful SF I’ve seen with a 45 was shot with setup like that. 100-8x......all solid X’s. Shot by Jerry Wilder USAR/Nat’l Team member.
Jon
Jon,

Jerry walked into my shop couple week ago while I was shooting. I stopped to visit and unloaded with two rounds remaining. He picked them up, reloaded them and proceed to shoot a 10 and an X. (50 yards)

I've shot his old Nygord Colt on several occasions. Bomar rib with an extended front sight. I've never seen him shoot it but recently he gave me a USAR printout of team averages dated 15 February 1979. So many greats on that team! Jerry's 2700 average was 2631, third behind Mel Makin  and Doc. And since we're talking long sight radius, his Free Pistol average was highest on the team at 547. 

Jim

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Re: Long site radius harder to shoot?

Post by 10sandxs on 1/10/2019, 7:16 am

Jon Eulette wrote:I prefer the longslide felt recoil. When I’m on my game I love it, the 5” just never ‘feels’ as good. But the 5” scores on a regular basis are slightly higher for me on average.
So it’s always a darn what pistol am I going to shoot at the next match? I shoot Aimpoint Micro on small rib so the pistol cycles faster and doesn’t have the longslide clunk/chug feel to it.
I loaned my buddy my longslide and he shot an 886 with it. He was on that day Wink
Jon
I've built several long slide 2011's for uspsa shooters in the past few years and the trend is longer barrel, but lightened slide. On one we got really radical and I had to tell the client that I dont advise taking that much out in those places, and I won't warrenty the slide if we do. He was ok with it so I did it it's been about three years now and he shoots major power factor loads, probably 7000 per year and has had no issues with it to date. I think we got the slide down to 9ish oz if memory serves. I think a standard 5 oz slide is about 10 oz, but don't quote me.

The reason for the story is to ask for opinions on long, light slides for bullseye.  Recoil is different (but also in a 40 S&w), but the guns seem to flip less and come back on target quicker, even in bullseye style shooting...  I've attached an image of the slide after the external machining was done. Can't find one of the internal work...
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2019-01-10 07.15.04.jpg You don't have permission to download attachments.(252 Kb) Downloaded 6 times

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Re: Long site radius harder to shoot?

Post by mikemyers on 1/10/2019, 8:40 am

bruce martindale wrote:Like Jon said.  Potential for better aiming offset by barrel time errors: usually an angular error introduced pre and post ignition. One by trigger induced motion other by grip error, sympathetic motion of other fingers. Then there is inconsistency in grip changing pointing during recoil itself.  Hard grip hits different place from a soft grip.  All this has nothing to do with sights or precision of aim.

See the you tube video " Aiming is Useless"
Bruce, thank you for the suggestion.  Lots of useful information to consider.



Sorry for any disruption of the thread - it can now get back on track.
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