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When to take the shot

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CR10X
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When to take the shot Empty When to take the shot

Post by thessler 1/8/2019, 6:41 am

Hi
This was mentioned on the previous thread, and I didn't want to ask questions on someone else's thread.
It was mentioned 5 or 6 seconds to take the shot . This may be simple but are we talking 5 or 6 after you pick the gun up ?
Or 5 or 6 after target acquisition?  It's a pretty big difference to me due to the fact I'm not that refined enough to just visually spot the red dot, some times it takes a few seconds and then a few more to get it on target. I have read about that 5 or 6 before but never really cleared it up. 
I never timed it but if I pick up the gun,  find the dot , get it on target I might be into it for five seconds.  If I have to shoot right away it's a quick Jerk and we know how that will end .
Thanks, Tom 

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Post by Wobbley 1/8/2019, 7:48 am

thessler wrote:
Hi
This was mentioned on the previous thread, and I didn't want to ask questions on someone else's thread.
It was mentioned 5 or 6 seconds to take the shot . This may be simple but are we talking 5 or 6 after you pick the gun up ?
Or 5 or 6 after target acquisition?  It's a pretty big difference to me due to the fact I'm not that refined enough to just visually spot the red dot, some times it takes a few seconds and then a few more to get it on target. I have read about that 5 or 6 before but never really cleared it up. 
I never timed it but if I pick up the gun,  find the dot , get it on target I might be into it for five seconds.  If I have to shoot right away it's a quick Jerk and we know how that will end .
Thanks, Tom 
Within 5 to six seconds of the “settle”.  

But what is implied in your post indicates you have bigger issues in play.  You seem to have an inconsistent lift and grip.  If it is taking you significant time finding the dot, then your grip and or stance may need work.  You are not gripping the pistol so you can Bring the pistol up with the dot in the view.   To view the dot you’re moving the wrist even minutely to get the dot visible.    What I suggest is to rest the gun between shots with your arm straight, aquire the dot while resting, lift your head to look at the target, then lift your arm from the shoulder.  See if the dot isn’t easier to find.  In the meantime find a grip and stance combination that allows the dot to remain visible throughout the lift.
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Post by CR10X 1/8/2019, 8:18 am

OK, 5 - 6 seconds was just a random number, but somewhat close to my best wobble area after getting the dot into my area of aim.  Some days my best wobble area is less time than that, rarely is it any longer. (Better to keep the 10 potential points in the gun, than fire a shot you know will lose points at the long line.)  Some people seem to shoot a little faster, other a little slower.  The best time to shoot the shot is the first best wobble area pattern you see. Learn your general wobble pattern, it is your guide to the 10 ring. 

So, no, for me it does not start when the gun lifts, but lifting and getting into the target area is just a few seconds.  Where a lot of shooters get stuck is they are not ready to shoot when they start to lift the gun. (What Wobbly mentioned above.)   Before the lift starts for a shot, you should be comfortable with grip, body position, alignment, etc.  Basically, you should be able to close your eyes and lift the gun and be pretty close to the center of the area of aim.  

If not, then spend some time getting set up before firing a shot or even dry firing, rather than wasting time and strength holding the gun out there while you fiddle with something that should have been taken care of already and then try to fire a shot.  If you are working on that, then don't fire (even with dryfiring), just work on adjusting the position, grip, trigger finger placement, trigger finger action, or whatever. 

Basically, try not to train to take an unacceptable shot, just because you've been holding the gun up there a while.  They don't take points off for starting over at the long line.  AND training to take a good shot WILL translate to better shots at the short line (sustained fire.)

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Post by willnewton 1/8/2019, 8:54 am

I have watched and timed the lift from bench until triggering of one National Champion at 6-8 seconds and another Nat. Champ at 20+ seconds.  This was for slow fire and does not include firing doubles, nor does it mean EVERY shot, but is just a general idea.

I do not have the arm and hold of better shooters.  I also try not to give my brain time to start over analyzing and trying to self correct a shot that is not coming together.  So I tend to take the shot or abort within 6-8ish seconds.

A good idea of when to abort is when you are settling into your aiming area and start thinking, “I can save this shot.”  That is a major sign that you need to start over.  Smile

As emphasized by Cecil above, it YOUR hold time, so don’t sweat too much what everyone else’s is.
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Post by mikemyers 1/8/2019, 10:44 am

thessler wrote:
.......I never timed it but if I pick up the gun,  find the dot , get it on target I might be into it for five seconds.  If I have to shoot right away it's a quick Jerk and we know how that will end.......
Before I got involved in this forum, I had never heard about a "shot process", listing *everything* you do before you fire that perfect shot.  In addition to what you've just read up above, if you write that out for yourself, and follow it religiously, you'll get to where you don't need to "think" about all those things you're doing, which frees your mind to do what's needed.  

I made a mess of the whole thing at first, thinking which finger goes where, how to grip, how to raise the gun and attempt to get the sights lined up, and once they were close, how to let my trigger finger apply more and more pressure.  Funny thing though, after enough repetition, it starts to happen naturally.  ...and like what was also noted above, if anything isn't going according to plan, lower the gun take a breath or two, and start over again.  

When I first started, I was doing all this very slowly, just to train myself to go through the motions.  Once I was doing that "ok", I just sped things up a little at a time.

Then Dave Salyer gave me the idea of "area aiming", and life got infinitely easier.  I didn't need to put the dot on the bullseye, I just needed to center my wobble area over the bullseye.  

I'm nowheres near an expert, and have only shot in two matches at my local club, but it's amazing how much good information one can pick up just by reading all these discussions.  After a while, they all start to fit together like a jigsaw puzzle.   :-)
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Post by SteveT 1/8/2019, 10:49 am

If I don't take the shot withing about 2 seconds of settling I should abort. If I'm still holding after 5 or 6 seconds I really should put the damn thing down and start over. The shot will not get any better.

Open sights, maybe 3 seconds.
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Post by bruce martindale 1/8/2019, 12:04 pm

Personally, l don't like the concept or term TAKE, l don't take, l GET, and if l don't GET within the timeframe before my brain says something is wrong, l abort ( in sf) there is some time to reset in tf but not rf. How dow your rf groups look compared to sf? Why are they better? It's a trigger game. Smoother on the squeezer without making it go is successful for me. So easy to get rough on it and yank off course. Smooth continuous pull irregardless of what you see takes training and discipline. Trigger is worth more than sights. A firm grip can offset some trigger induced motions and get consistent recoil control during barrel time. I developed a flinch that took a long time to tame but I am getting there and doing it with slow loads for training and now faster for competition. Thanks

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Post by thessler 1/8/2019, 2:18 pm

OK thanks guys.  As mentioned my grip and stance are very inconsistent.  I have tried standing facing the target all the way to 90 perpendicular.  Never once have I said ok this is it. It really doesn't seem to matter. Same with grip, I've tried with the tip of my finger on the trigger all the way to past the first knuckle. 
I have now settled on about  45 degree stance and the trigger centered in the first knuckle joint.
Truth is eight times out of ten I need to move my wrist, most times minutely on the way up to get the dot.
I will concentrate on that for my next couple of sessions and see if I can improve. 
Thanks again, Tom

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Post by bruce martindale 1/9/2019, 8:36 pm

Do you set up and lift with your eyes closed? Let your body tell you where it wants to point. Then rotate by moving rear foot to true up on the target. Few muscles are needed to do this well.

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Post by mikemyers 1/9/2019, 9:36 pm

I was thinking back to when I started training like you guys are discussing here.  I may be "better", but I don't think I'm "there" yet.

Anyway, I noticed that doing this was very sensitive to how  I held the gun.  The better I got at gripping the gun the same way every time, the better a chance the gun came up pointed the right way.

Part of this relates to getting your feet in the right spot - someone at my club took a piece of chalk, outlined where my feet needed to be for "natural aim", and I repeated that each time, for a long time.  

To be honest, all I can say is I'm "better".  When I get home in a few weeks, I'll spend a lot more time at this.   ......but the reason I'm posting this now, is that I now think that before this can be perfected, I would need to grip the gun identically every time.   

(To test this, I set up two targets, fired five rounds at one, then set the gun down to change to a new magazine, raised the gun, and fired five rounds at the other target.  Both groups were better than I usually shoot, and both groups were NOT centered on the same target location.  From now on, my right hand will remain on the gun as I change magazines.)


Bruce, thanks.  I don't know the name for it, but there is a feeling I get that something isn't right - I used to compensate, but as was noted up above, by then my hand was getting more tired.  I need to recognize that, and immediately abort the shot, and stat all over again.  Maybe I'm wrong, but starting all over again should mean setting the gun down, and starting at the point of picking it up again.  I didn't realize this until I read what you guys have been saying.  I usually judge if my hand is in the right position or not, by what part of my trigger finger rests on the trigger.  It used to be too far in, correct, or not far enough in.  That was my first clue to start over.  Now it's more difficult.
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