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Fundamental question

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Post by thessler Sat Jan 12, 2019 4:43 pm

Hi
Just this past week I have discovered and practiced pulling the trigger slowly. I am pulling it alot slower than I really want to, but as a result my groups have decreased dramatically. This is all good news . A problem  I am having is I get these fliers from time to time that are no where near the spot I pulled the trigger.  Sometimes they are at 12 o'clock but more often then not they are low towards 4 o'clock. Right handed shooter. I can usually call within reason where the shot will be on a good shot. But when I get these unexpected shots I'll look where it should be and it's no where near . And I end up saying how is that possible.  
On these stray shots I do not believe I am Jerking the trigger but I could be wrong.  My only thought is I'm breaking my wrist unexpectedly and don't even realize it.  When I think I'm breaking my wrist I end up tightening up trying to keep it stable which over tightens my grip and the trigger finger . Thereby ruining the next few shots. 
I am still a new shooter,  and shoot alot probably more than I should but highly motivated. Dry firing doesn't seem to work for me. I know that sounds rediculas but when I dry fire it always seems perfect.  It's when there is a bullet in the gun and I'm trying to hit a target that something is breaking down.
Any thoughts on this or suggestions to improve or eliminate these fliers greatly appreciated. 
Thanks, Tom

thessler

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Post by mspingeld Sat Jan 12, 2019 5:52 pm

First off, welcome!

Dry firing isn't working? Sounds like it's working perfectly. Keep doing it! and do it seriously. I recommend doing 60% of your dry firing on a blank wall, 30% in your lap without looking at the sights and 10% on a target. (did that add up to 100?)

My guess is you're pulling the trigger too slowly. It's an important concept. Too slow is bad. Too fast is bad. How long, on average, would you say you hold before a good shot goes off?

Another thing to consider is trigger finger placement. Hold the gun up toward a blank wall. Do not cock the hammer or rack the slide. While looking at the dot/sights, put some pressure on the trigger, then let off. What happened to the sights? Experiment with trigger finger placement in this way to find the sweet spot that doesn't disturb the sight alignment.

Lastly, read through the posts under fundamentals, paying particular attention to the high masters.

Then read, and re-read these articles. A full course in mastering bullseye shooting: http://www.starreloaders.com/edhall/12PPC01.html

Hope this was helpful!

mspingeld

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Post by thessler Sat Jan 12, 2019 6:27 pm

Thanks Mike 
I'll work on it.

thessler

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Post by CR10X Sat Jan 12, 2019 6:35 pm

On these stray shots I do not believe I am Jerking the trigger but I could be wrong.


Well, what did you see?   If  you are truly seeing the sights / dot, then you should be able to see the shot was off and be able to call it.  Therefore its sounds like that during live fire you may still be blinking, flinching, losing focus on the front sight, have the focus between the target or the dot (not on either one completely), etc., on those shots.  

Remember we are focusing on the front sight (or dot or target with red dot) but we are "seeing" everything as part of the sight picture.  Some people over on the Enos forum (IPSC, etc.) would call it awareness, the zone, zen mindset, or whatever.  But just because the front sight is in complete clear focus should not distract from seeing its relationship in the notch or the sight picture, or the pattern of wobble on the aiming area.  Work on seeing, then you can find the source of your issue.

The shot should not be "near where it should be" but "near where you called it".  If that is what you were trying to say, then OK.  Just keep working on the trigger.  If you really were not on call, then go back to also working on seeing the sights / dot all the way through the shot, each time.  When you can see the front sight silhouetted in the muzzle flash of the shot, then you have reached the goal.  If you have never seen the muzzle flash, then keep "looking" (pun intended).

CR

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Post by thessler Sat Jan 12, 2019 10:04 pm

Thanks cr
I am using a dot, and for the life of me I cannot figure out if I'm focusing on the dot or the target. This may sound silly but I have tried a hard focus on the target, and then I've tried a hard focus on the dot. I cannot differentiate between the two. They both appear to be on the same plane. Of course I know they are not but this is one concept that I have no idea how to figure out. So I really don't know what I'm focusing on, probably somewhere in the middle. I have tons of homework to do I'll keep at it.

Sometimes I do see the shot go off track, and sometimes I think I might be blinking.  I used to blink every shot for some reason but now I'm getting pretty good at follow through. 
Thanks Tom

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Post by CR10X Sun Jan 13, 2019 8:16 am

OK, that information helps a lot.  The dot and the target are almost on the same plane, but not exactly.  And with everyone's vision being sightly different (as in not exactly perfect) the dot is not always round.  So that makes distinguishing the "focus object" a little harder with the dot.   

So two things to try are: 

(1) Blank target firing with the dot.  There is nothing else but the dot to focus on and then a big beige rectangle in the background.  Makes it easier to focus on the dot exclusively and to see its pattern all the way through the shot.  After getting used to focusing on just the dot, then you can try just focusing on the target (black) if you want to.  We're just learning how to focus (vision and attention) on just one thing, but seeing it all.  

(Exercise: try seeing the very center LED of the whole group on one of the new LED stop lights sometime. but don't get so distracted that you don't notice when it turns green.  People don't like that.)

(2) Training time with open sights.  Seeing the alignment of the front and rear sights (start with dryfiring on blank wall) all the way through the hammer fall is good training.  If you focus on the front sight completely, you can see how your grip and trigger operation may be affecting the gun throughout the shot process.  Open sights help separate what the trigger finger and grip are doing to the gun's angular position with respect to the line of sight from the wobble of the complete gun, hand, arm, etc., on the target.  That's hard to see the difference with just the dot.

(Remember that it's the introduction angular displacement that really screws up the shot. So keep the gun parallel - front and rear sights aligned, and just let the wobble happen. Those shots will be well in the black, no matter how bad the wobble.) 

CR

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Post by David R Sun Jan 13, 2019 10:25 am

Thank you. My new bride shoots with me. She has most shots in the black, and a few near the black and then some no where to be found. Then she looks at me and says "What did I do wrong?" My answer is usually, well you did it right 7 times out of 10. This iformation helps. I left her 1911 in the safe downstairs so she can dry fire to see if it helps. This porblem is more with center fire than rimfire. At practice, she can shoot quite well. During a match, the pressure must be affecting her.
She usually gets all 30 rimfire.
Thanks for the 60/30/10 recomendation.

David
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Post by thessler Sun Jan 13, 2019 4:41 pm

Thanks CR
Did some work with open sights today, whole new ball game keeping it straight. But I can see there is something to be learned here.
Tom

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