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Another Wobble Question

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mhayford45
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Post by DA/SA Wed Feb 13, 2019 11:00 am

My shop is eighty feet wide, so I have a target taped on one wall so I can dry fire at 25 yards. 

Why is it that my wobble consumes practically the entire black area of the target and sometimes more, But if I stand at the target and dry fire at a thumb sized smudge on the opposite wall I can nearly hold steady on the smudge and the trigger breaks without moving from the smudge?

I have also noticed this at the range where I wobble all over the target, but can single out a chunk of rubber or a leaf on the berm behind the target and usually hit it. I also found the same when after tearing down a stapled target a small corner of the target and a staple remained, so I walked back and shot at it from 25 yds. Ten shots and it was a very small tight group on that little piece of target the size of a silver dollar.

When I go to the indoor range a couple of the RO's always come in with a stick on 3/4" repair dot and we run it out to a random ten to fifteen yard distance and each get two shots at it with a random iron sight service pistol. One of those two shots hits the dot.

So, why is it that I can do the above examples and then find it such a struggle to hit a 5.5" black dot as 25 yards using a very accurate pistol with a dot scope on it? 

Is it due to not having a specifically defined aiming point?

How do I get through this psychological barrier?

Thank You!!
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Post by mspingeld Wed Feb 13, 2019 11:19 am

My opinion (FWIW), is don't! Let the dot move with a smooth, determined, non-stop application of the trigger and you'll likely find the group is smaller than your perceived wobble. Try 10 rounds like that and 10 on a paper with a 1" black. See if there's a noticeable difference in group size.

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Post by Wobbley Wed Feb 13, 2019 11:51 am

You’re aiming at the black.  Aim at the ten ring or x-ring.  

Aim small miss small.  Your target is the ten ring.  Shoot from a bench and find out how much the dot can be off center and still get a ten.  My wobble varies during a shot process.  It goes from edge to edge of black to just barely out of the ten ring.  That is a null.  I try to shoot then.  I’m not always successful.
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Post by DA/SA Wed Feb 13, 2019 11:56 am

I think that that's the issue, I'm aiming at the black because I cant see the X or the rings as a defined aiming point.

If I shoot at a blank sheet of paper the shots will disperse over the entire sheet.

Soon after I began shooting I discovered that the smaller the target was the smaller my groups were.
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Post by Allgoodhits Wed Feb 13, 2019 12:15 pm

Try bigger dot, keeping all of the dot in the black.
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Post by Multiracer Wed Feb 13, 2019 12:18 pm

Allgoodhits wrote:Try bigger dot, keeping all of the dot in the black.
This has worked for me...good advice for the issue you present.
Ron

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Post by David R Wed Feb 13, 2019 12:45 pm

For years I aimed at the black.   All shots in the black was great. 
Then I started shooting for the X.  Things got better.

David
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Post by DA/SA Wed Feb 13, 2019 12:47 pm

You know, I recently switched from a 1"Ultradot to a Sightron S-30, which has a smaller dot, and was going to switch back to the Ultradot last night and ran out of time.

Thinking back I have not shot as well since I went to the Sightron a couple of range trips ago.

Thank You!

I also finally got new lenses yesterday, as my prescription had changed significantly in my dominant eye, so we'll see how that works out as well.
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Post by CR10X Wed Feb 13, 2019 1:22 pm

Allgoodhits has come closest so far (in my opinion).  (Does anyone ever notice the correlation between "aiming at a point" and "area of aim" and NRA Classifications on the forum?)

Think about it.  Distance and trigonometry. 

I would recommend not "aiming" at something and replace that with "look for the smallest wobble area".  Sometimes it helps to get the dot moving in smaller oscillations by having a center, but in reality it will generally lead to picking off shots. Yes, you can get good shots by picking a point, but are consistently grouped?  Remember, we have to shoot 270 times for the match. 

Again, just my opinion, but aiming at point is just a diversion and leads to keeping the focus from the front sight / dot / or even the target (try focus on the entire black if you choose that one.)  How are you going to know if you are on the "point" without putting your focus there?  This leads to shifting back and forth.   

However, some people are wired differently and can focus on the target and a specific point and have confidence / ability the wobble will center on it.  So if it works for you, please continue.  But if you reach a plateau, think about it again.  There are lots of discussions on this on the list.  There are proponents for each method. 

Also, it helps to learn how to keep the gun parallel to the intended line of flight by training on open sights.  This is another area where using a point of aim seems to create improvement at a longer term cost.  Sometimes shooters are using a point to help identify and control it when the trigger finger process and grip are not consistent enough and are driving the wobble larger.  Remember, everything important happens at the gun.  Using open sights helps separate the introduction of angular displacement of the gun from the general wobble.  Hence, watch the front sight and its relationship to the rear to learn how to hold the gun properly aligned.

CR


Last edited by CR10X on Wed Feb 13, 2019 5:46 pm; edited 1 time in total

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Post by DA/SA Wed Feb 13, 2019 3:45 pm

I switched back to the Ultradot, as I had planned to do anyway, and everything seems right with the world again. 

Dry firing, the wobble is back to minimum again and seems to stay centered well within the black, and the dot intensity is much better as well. My eye tears constantly, so the dot appears more like an illuminated distorted blob, but that's pretty normal.

The smaller dimmer dot on the Sightron appears to have been distracting my focus and putting it primarily on seeing the dot, as it was more difficult to see. It seemed to zip around the target more like a nervous twitch than a wobble, so apparently, my eye may have been following the dot rather than staying on the center of the target and letting the dot float within the area...

Between significant vision issues and being totally new to this, it's an interesting learning curve, but I can't wait to get to the range on Sunday mornings. I dry fire, do grip exercises every night, and hold a ten of fifteen pound dumbell out at arms length.

Thank you all for the help!
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Post by mhayford45 Wed Feb 13, 2019 9:22 pm

Be careful with the 10-15 pound dumbbell. If you injure your shoulder it will take a very long time to heal and feel right. I say this from experience... no more than 3 pounds. Also, I have found that  just doing more dry firing with the gun is all you really need to do. 

If you are looking down range at the target with a dot or iron sights it will be difficult to reach master scores. Instead focus on keeping the dot stable within the field of view ... focus on the dot at the the scope, not down range. This keeps your wrist locked, your hold steady and allows good trigger control. Trigger control trumps everything...

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Post by DA/SA Wed Feb 13, 2019 10:31 pm

mhayford45 wrote:focus on the dot at the the scope, not down range. 
This is interesting, but I'm not sure how to tell the difference.

With iron sights, I use a clear focus on the front sight and the target is just a blur.

I wear glasses with progressive lenses, so when shooting with a dot, I adjust until the dot is as clearly defined as I can get it. Would that be what you are referring to?

Thanks!

I'm interested in finding an instructor to shoot with so I don't waste the rest of my life doing things incorrectly, but I'm not real sure how to track one down.
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Post by robert84010 Wed Feb 13, 2019 10:47 pm

DA/SA, what area of the country are you in? There might be somebody here near you.

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Post by DA/SA Wed Feb 13, 2019 10:52 pm

I'm about a 45 minute drive North of West Palm Beach, FL.
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Post by Jon Eulette Wed Feb 13, 2019 11:03 pm

There are basic two theories of thought on shooting the red dot. Theory number 1,  look at the target and try to keep the red dot centered in the bull. Theory  number 2,  look at the red dot and accept your hold.
 If I try theory number 1 I can’t hit the broadside of a barn. Theory number 2  I focus on the red dot and keep it centered in the scope tube. The scope tube is my rear sight and the red dot is my front sight. This allows me to easily except my hold or wobble and squeeze the trigger. It is similar to shooting iron sights. Most of the high masters I know use this method when shooting the red dot optic.  I know Of very few good shooters that can shoot Method number  1. I believe they can do it because they have exceptional hold. I believe if you’re hold is marginal he will shoot worse.
Theory or method can be interchanged as necessary.
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Post by mikemyers Wed Feb 13, 2019 11:23 pm

Jon, not knowing which theory to use, I ended up watching this video by Brian Zins.  I ended up following his suggestion.  Next time at the range I'll also try what you suggested.  
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Post by mikemyers Wed Feb 13, 2019 11:29 pm

......also, went to the range a couple of days ago with two nearly identical wad guns, one with an Aimpoint H1 sight, and the other with a simple Matchdot L/T which I didn't expect to work very well.  The "picture" from the Aimpoint was better, but my group with the L/T was better.  The Aimpoint clearly had a better "dot".  The L/T, by comparison, had a blurry reddish area that represented the dot.  

I will try to take photos through both of these, to show what I'm "seeing".
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Post by mikemyers Wed Feb 13, 2019 11:35 pm

DA/SA wrote:....I wear glasses with progressive lenses, so when shooting with a dot, I adjust until the dot is as clearly defined as I can get it......
I used to do that - had to move my head up/down to adjust the focus.  Was very annoying for me.  For a very low cost, you can get a set of fixed focus "distance" lenses with the correct prescription, made from polycarbonate for safety.

(I cheated - my right lens had a distance prescription for the target, and my left lens had a prescription for the loading table in front of me, so I could see near or far.  Then someone here in the forum sent me an "occluder" which blanked out the incorrect prescription from my left eye while I was shooting.  Nice!!)
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Post by DA/SA Thu Feb 14, 2019 12:01 am

It seems that Brian is describing/using "theory #1", and Jon is describing/using "Theory #2".

I have been using "Theory #1", but now have something else to try thanks to Jon's suggestion!
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Post by DA/SA Thu Feb 14, 2019 11:18 am

Jon Eulette wrote:Theory number 2  I focus on the red dot and keep it centered in the scope tube. The scope tube is my rear sight and the red dot is my front sight. This allows me to easily except my hold or wobble and squeeze the trigger. It is similar to shooting iron sights. 
After this clear explanation and trying it, it is very easy to differentiate the two methods and equally as easy and natural to use either method.

Thank you!!

The guidance given on this site is invaluable and greatly appreciated!
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Post by mhayford45 Thu Feb 14, 2019 12:48 pm

John Zurek taught me to center the dot within the circle of the scope- field of view. To do this you must look at the dot and scope. Theory #2 above. It took me 2 years to understand why he said this. To keep the dot centered you must firm/lock your wrist and keep a very steady grip/hold. Later in my process I realized that you could put the dot anywhere in the field of view as long as you held it in that spot. I now hold the dot towards the bottom arc of the scope as I find it easier to keep it steady there. I use this method for Slow fire. 

For TF/RF with the dot held steady in the bottom arc of the scope, my attention is still at the scope. However, I can see the X at 25 yards in the background and shoot for the X ... kind of like theory 1/2 combined. My hold is good enough to keep me consistently >=98 and my X count at about 50%. However, as soon as my attention moves all to the target my X count declines.

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Post by DA/SA Thu Feb 14, 2019 3:00 pm

Thank You!

I will be trying this soon.
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Post by TomH_pa Thu Feb 14, 2019 3:09 pm

What about dot size & brightness? Big and bright or small and dim?

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Post by Jon Eulette Thu Feb 14, 2019 3:13 pm

When I’m holding good I use smaller dot at 50 yds. If my hold is not as good I turn up the dot to keep my focus on the dot. On short line I turn it up a click to not lose my focus on dot on the last shot; old age thing Wink
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Post by TomH_pa Thu Feb 14, 2019 3:34 pm

"Copy that" on the old age thing
Thanks

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