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Roll Trigger as a Training Device

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rich.tullo
Pac918
Tim:H11
jglenn21
zanemoseley
dapduh2
bruce martindale
TonyH
kc.crawford.7
james r chapman
dronning
Jon Eulette
mspingeld
Soupy44
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Post by Soupy44 3/19/2019, 9:27 am

My question for all of you mad scientist coaches, would it be a good idea to get a long roll trigger now and use it until I notice it holding me back?

I'm on KC's waiting list for him to upgrade my Range Officer and want him to put a roll trigger in.  I'm about 2yrs into the sport and shot a PR Sunday of 2453 borrowing a 1911 with a long roll trigger from a friend.  My previous PR was 2383 in October using the same borrowed gun, but shooting a load that barely functioned the gun (9 saved rounds).  And before that using my 4lb crisp trigger Range Officer I was shooting around 2300.  The trigger has been my struggle since I started pistol (smallbore background, 20yrs of shooting a 1oz 2-stage trigger).

What I'm thinking about is going with a long roll trigger with this gun as a training tool, and then either getting a new gun with a short/medium roll when I hit MA/HM.  I liked the long roll because it gave me feedback that I was making progress on the trigger.  As I was warned and as I fatigued on Sunday, I noticed I was anticipating the shot more due to the long roll.  Ended up with some low left shots due to that.  It's easy for me to say that's on me.

Anyone have any strong opinions on this plan?  Weak opinions appreciated too!

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Post by mspingeld 3/19/2019, 9:50 am

Long vs. short vs. crisp is personal preference. Congrats on the PR. Is it possible it has nothing to do with the equipment and everything to do with the operator?

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Post by Jon Eulette 3/19/2019, 10:13 am

Long roll is good for extreme newb to get them to feel the trigger moving. You will actually out grow it pretty fast and it will hold you back. Shouldn't go any longer than a mediumish roll. Your hold must be Godlike to shoot a long roll.
Jon
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Post by Soupy44 3/19/2019, 1:10 pm

Thank Mike, I would like to officially take full credit for shooting well! Shooting the roll trigger helped me sense that I was making progress on breaking the shot. Shooting my service pistol I offen have the thought creep in "when will this break?". I rarely had that happen Sunday. 

Jon, I like the idea of having a hold referred to as that good. I'm curious as to when a long roll would hold me back. I know I can shoot a lot better with the borrowed gun with more time. I looked back over my score cards and notes from Sunday and feel 2500 is well within my abilities with my 22 and the borrowed gun given a little more time.

I guess my goals would be a factor. My immediate goals are to have complete precision in calling my shots. I'm most of the way there with a 22 and a dot, but have work to do with irons, and work to do with 45 both irons and dot.

In slowfire, I feel I'm transitioning from taking shots and measuring the visual feedback with the hole in the paper in training. I haven't gotten to 50y in my workbook in 22 yet. In competition I completely just my performance on my shot calling, no matter if a good or bad shot. Until I have complete mastery of this I feel shot selection is a secondary concern short term. I know when I have better shot selection, 90s SF are within my abilities.

TF I just in October started to be comfortable and not rushed. That made me feel more comfortable with keeping the trigger moving. Now I'm working to make that happen more on purpose rather than happy circumstance. 

RF I feel rushed. My main issue is a very slow first shot. I've spent too much of my life shooting SF. People have told me I sometimes take my first shot 3-4sec in. Have to say it certainly feels like it. I had 4 late skidders on Sunday. In training I do the BE Timer one shot drill and get in a good rhythm, I just need to translate that to competition. I don't have a turning target for training, and I think that one would help me. I feel settling on the bull with the app's range commands just isn't real enough for my short comings. 

Relating this to a roll trigger, my SF hold is plenty good in my meager opinion. The dot spends most of the time in the black at 50. My struggle is the shot breaking cleanly during the best part of the hold. TF pushes my timing to keep the trigger moving in a balanced way, motivating but not rushing. RF when I get a good first shot off is night and day. My 45 RF strings we're all in the 80s and I had no good first shots. The one 22 string with a good first shot was a 97, the others were 93 and 94.

Sorry for the long post. I'm excited at the breakthroughs I'm having and want to make sure I make a good equipment decision to help me perform and improve.

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Post by dronning 3/19/2019, 3:09 pm

Zins shoots a fairly long roll. Smile
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Post by Soupy44 3/19/2019, 6:50 pm

Be like Zins!  Not quite the same ring as Be Like Mike, but works for me!

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Post by james r chapman 3/19/2019, 7:53 pm

Zins shoots a fairly long roll. Roll Trigger as a Training Device Icon_smile

Your hold must be Godlike to shoot a long roll


I think there is an answer why here....


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Post by kc.crawford.7 3/20/2019, 6:18 am

I set up Brian's gun last month with 2 different sears.  One for a medium roll the other for a short roll.  He no longer shoots the ultra long roll he used to.  Life got in the way and he's not training 8 plus hours a day and sending thousands of rounds downrange every month.

As Jon said, you'll probably move to a shorter roll at some period of time.  The long roll is great for perfect conditions.  We shoot in those every day right?  Reality is most people will shoot something between a short to medium roll when they get used to the roll trigger.
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Post by Soupy44 3/20/2019, 8:33 pm

Thanks KC! Sounds like the consensus is talking me out of a long roll towards a medium roll at most. I'll work on the Godlike hold in the meantime!

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Post by TonyH 3/21/2019, 6:51 am

KC
Are the Roll Trigger Kits available on your website, long, medium or short? Don't see that in the description.
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Post by kc.crawford.7 3/21/2019, 8:02 am

TonyH wrote:KC
Are the Roll Trigger Kits available on your website, long, medium or short? Don't see that in the description.
Tony,

The length of roll is determined by the receiver and the face of the sear.  I have no way of selling a kit with a specified length of roll.
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Post by TonyH 3/21/2019, 1:11 pm

Makes sense now that you point it out. Thanks. I'll swing by at Perry to feel the difference if possible.


Last edited by TonyH on 3/21/2019, 1:55 pm; edited 1 time in total
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Post by Soupy44 3/21/2019, 1:48 pm

Well that is that, sounds like I don't get much of a choice anyways without buying a separate gun from someone.

Thanks again everyone!

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Post by james r chapman 3/21/2019, 2:24 pm

Sounds like it can be adjusted as needed.
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Post by bruce martindale 3/21/2019, 7:54 pm

KC 

How to best reduce roll length? Bring the hammer hooks back from 0.033 towards 0.018?
Thanks

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Post by kc.crawford.7 3/22/2019, 6:38 am

bruce martindale wrote:KC 

How to best reduce roll length? Bring the hammer hooks back from 0.033 towards 0.018?
Thanks
If you do anything to the hammer hooks you've destroyed the hammer.  To reduce the roll you have to shorten the primary face.
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Post by dapduh2 3/22/2019, 11:17 am

I was leaning towards a long roll before I saw this thread. When I see KC tomorrow I’m blaming the extra questions on you guys haha.
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Post by Soupy44 3/23/2019, 3:47 pm

UPDATE!!!

So turns out the gun I borrow was a shorter roll.  Shot a MUCH longer roll today.  The creep on the first trigger felt like a mile, today it felt like 5 miles.  I have an immensely better understanding of why long rolls are harder to shoot.

I beat my previous PR from Sunday by 2 points today, but I feel far more mentally fatigued than I did Sunday.  I am sufficiently talked out of a long roll trigger now!

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Post by bruce martindale 3/23/2019, 4:37 pm

Ok so do you lay the sear, curling down, on a stone and remove from the front of the sear, or does it require a different angle from a jig? Thanks

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Post by zanemoseley 3/23/2019, 5:49 pm

Bruce, sounds like you need a sear jig. I hear good stuff about the true radius jig.

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Post by james r chapman 3/23/2019, 9:33 pm

Use a tru radius jig
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Post by jglenn21 3/24/2019, 6:33 am

Believe Bruce is talking about the relief cut on the sear face. Yes you can cut it that way but I'd suggest placing a .020-.030 feeler gauge under the  flat portion of the sear near the feet to change the angle of the cut. Personally i still use my Power series 1 to cut the relief as it's very easy to monitor how much relief you are cutting.
I like a short roll so my hooks are .018 -.020 and i use the TR sear jig. This combination requires a small amount of relief cut. I've done a fair number of setups this way and never had one that the hammer would fall on an  empty chamber test.(not.something i would do often on a set).
The other side of this combination is the parts i use. Today i normally only use Extreme Engineering sears and their hammers. I will on occasion also use STI sears and hammers.
Quality parts help equal quality results. Sears should be finished at least with a .404 length or .405. Easy to do on the TR jig if you start with a long sear. That measurement is from the sear nose to the cemter of the sear pin hole.

I'm an amateur smith and only work on my stuff and family's but this is what has worked for me. I'm sure other combinations will work. The TR jig is the cats a**


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Post by Tim:H11 3/24/2019, 6:37 am

Me likey a short roll. That’s all I got. Besides: Make sure you have someone who knows what they’re doing, do it for you so it comes out right. Needs to feel right.
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Post by Pac918 10/21/2021, 10:08 am

kc.crawford.7 wrote:
TonyH wrote:KC
Are the Roll Trigger Kits available on your website, long, medium or short? Don't see that in the description.
Tony,

The length of roll is determined by the receiver and the face of the sear.  I have no way of selling a kit with a specified length of roll.
KC, I hadn’t thought about the receiver as a factor affecting roll. Is it the relative locations of the sear and hammer pin holes (with tolerances there dictating the sear nose/hammer hook engagement)?
Thx. 
Peter

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Post by rich.tullo 11/6/2021, 10:05 am

zanemoseley wrote:Bruce, sounds like you need a sear jig. I hear good stuff about the true radius jig.
I use it works great and will also help with trigger follow if your guns is a little out of SPEC. 

I got Extreme Engineering Ultra Light sear, and buffed the sear a little with a White India Stone using the radius side of the Jig, If you want to shorten the roll, then cut an angle with the JIG as per instructions. However my trigger job came out perfect with just a light buff. 

So far I have learned if your are using good parts , less is sometimes more.
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