The Accuracy Con

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Post by GerhardG on 3/22/2019, 8:09 pm

Ransom Rest will win every time! SO I don't care who made the dam gun as long as it's decent, say a Springfield Range Officer and a Ruger Mark IV which I use. Yes, I did a few upgrades on the Ruger nothing on the RO. I used a simple two-handed benched hold at 25 yards and printed very nice cloverleaves. So that Ransom Rest sure could up my game a lot!

So why the hell would I spend a nickel on a German or Italian import? Or throw additional money on a Les Baer, Wilson, Accuracy X etc... because
when the human interface steps to the firing line all sorts of new shit is going to go wrong.

 Now don't get me wrong I am perfectly willing to try shooting a course with the Ransom rest but fellas it's to dam heavy to hold up and too hard to keep it from moving around during the rapid-fire stage!

 So if it's OK you with you folks I am just going to keep on practicing 3 days per week and save my money for more ammo and range time. You can keep your Ransom Rest and all those test results with those pricy guns to yourself. 

Thank you very much
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Post by TonyH on 3/22/2019, 8:18 pm

See!!! This is what makes America great! We are all free to do exactly what we please!
Let’s not lose it.....
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Post by Jon Eulette on 3/22/2019, 8:20 pm

Said no high master ever!
But if this floats your boat more power to ya. Fair winds and following seas......
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Post by kidneyboy on 3/22/2019, 8:38 pm

Ransom rests show the capability of the gun not the shooter. If the gun isn't capable it doesn't matter what the shooter does.

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Post by Jack H on 3/22/2019, 9:38 pm

Ransom Rest tests are very important but can be replaced by careful arm or sandbag tests.  Up to a point anyway.  One thing needed for arm or bag testing is confidence in your knowledge and ability in hand held shooting by sight alignment and trigger control.

I note my Ransom test of a conversion where it got expected results with most ammos.  1" +/- with Eley and other decent ammo.  Except one.  CCI Green Tag was like 5"+ under the same conditions.  Double tested to confirm.
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Post by farmboy on 3/22/2019, 10:15 pm

The Accuracy Con Pop_co10
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Post by mpolans on 3/23/2019, 12:09 am

GerhardG wrote:Ransom Rest will win every time! SO I don't care who made the dam gun as long as it's decent, say a Springfield Range Officer and a Ruger Mark IV which I use. Yes, I did a few upgrades on the Ruger nothing on the RO. I used a simple two-handed benched hold at 25 yards and printed very nice cloverleaves. So that Ransom Rest sure could up my game a lot!

So why the hell would I spend a nickel on a German or Italian import? Or throw additional money on a Les Baer, Wilson, Accuracy X etc... because
when the human interface steps to the firing line all sorts of new shit is going to go wrong.

 Now don't get me wrong I am perfectly willing to try shooting a course with the Ransom rest but fellas it's to dam heavy to hold up and too hard to keep it from moving around during the rapid-fire stage!

 So if it's OK you with you folks I am just going to keep on practicing 3 days per week and save my money for more ammo and range time. You can keep your Ransom Rest and all those test results with those pricy guns to yourself. 

Thank you very much
Stacking tolerances.  Suppose you're firing slow fire, if the gun goes off when your hold has you 0.75" off of dead center and your gun shoots 1.5" groups at 50 yards (0.75" radius), worst case scenario, your shot is 1.5" from center.  Since the 10-ring is 3.36" in diameter (1.68" radius), your shot is still a 10.  Now instead, suppose your gun shoots 5" groups at 50 yards (2.50" radius); worst case scenario, your shot is now 3.25".  Since the 9-ring is only 5.54" in diameter (2.77" radius), your worst case scenario is now an 8.  

In fact, if your gun only shoots 5" groups at 50 yards (really, anything over 3.36"), whether or not you shoot a 10 is a matter of chance.  

On the other hand, if you've got a gun that shoots 1.5" groups, your margin of error can be as much as +/- 0.93" from dead center and you'll still shoot a 10.

NOTE:  The above doesn't factor in different bullet diameters.

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Post by SW-52 on 3/23/2019, 5:59 am

Jon Eulette wrote:Said no high master ever!
But if this floats your boat more power to ya. Fair winds and following seas......
Jon
+1
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Post by BE Mike on 3/23/2019, 7:57 am

After a certain level, a lot of the game is mental. Buying and using a Ransom Rest at 50 yards allowed me to have peace of mind regarding equipment and focus more on the other parts of the game. Having said that, I was never obsessed with getting those tiny, tiny groups. Any groups that were always in the 10 ring with a lot of X's satisfied me. I did always step up to the line for the first shot of a match, knowing that my first shot should be an X with my fancy (and apparently hated by you), Hammerli 208s, loaded with CCI Match Pistol ammo, and by George, that thinking more often than not, got me an X. Having said that, we each have a different make-up and different things affect us differently. Anything we do to build confidence is good.
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Post by mikemyers on 3/23/2019, 8:22 am

GerhardG wrote:......So why the hell would I spend a nickel on a German or Italian import? Or throw additional money on a Les Baer, Wilson, Accuracy X etc... because when the human interface steps to the firing line all sorts of new shit is going to go wrong.......
Since you're presumably talking about Bullseye, I think the above wording is the main point you are trying to make.  Maybe you should compare the gun you use now, with what Jon Eulette, Dave Salyer, or KC Crawford (and other Bullseye smiths) could do to improve it.  (Have you read up on what they do?)

When and if the changes would make a difference to you, depends on how well you can shoot.  Consider that a bad shooter, with the best gun, is likely to do far worse than a good shooter, using an average gun.

(By the way, I haven't seen anyone in this forum suggesting people buy from Les Baer, Wilson, Accuracy X, etc.  I have a Les Baer Premier II.  However well I could shoot it, both of the Dave Salyer 1911's I now have allow me to shoot better than with the Baer.  That's me, with my own level of shooting ability.)
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Post by james r chapman on 3/23/2019, 8:27 am

I would expect a gun builder to use a mechanical device to test and refine my gun to a repeatable level.

When I receive it I will know my baseline.
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Post by larryx on 3/23/2019, 10:38 am

I remember reading that Bill Blankenship could out shoot a Ransom Rest. 
Anyone else remember reading that? That was in the 60s.

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Post by David R on 3/23/2019, 11:02 am

I have fallen for the accuracy con big time.  I took my Dan Wesson Valor and shot it from a hand held rest with a Burris FF III sight on it.

Best group at 50 yards was 4.25".  They went up from there.   I even shot some Federal 185 FMC WC.  

My gun needs help.  Smile 

I only want to blame bad shots on ME.

I have heard of a few folks claiming they could out shoot a ransom rest.  Never seen it. 

We had a discussion on another board about "It shoots better than me, so what does it matter?"

David

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Post by Allen Barnett on 3/23/2019, 11:11 am

Yep sure do as my Dad (Charlie R Barnett) was his gunsmith in Bill's very early days at the AMU.  Even worse worse Joe Benner's Colt revolver which Dad said would not hold the black at fifty from a Ransom rest but yet he could shoot a clean at fifty.

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Post by Allen Barnett on 3/23/2019, 11:12 am

Yep sure do as my Dad (Charlie R Barnett) was his gunsmith in Bill's very early days at the AMU.  Even worse worse Joe Benner's Colt revolver which Dad said would not hold the black at fifty from a Ransom rest but yet he could shoot a clean at fifty.

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Post by mikemyers on 3/23/2019, 11:14 am

David R wrote:......and shot it from a hand held rest.....
Suggestion - ask an expert to fire it from that hand rest, or another.  Even then, it's not going to replicate a Ransom Rest in my opinion.  You are still holding the gun, and your finger is still firing the gun.   Last time I tried, I could get very good groups with a rest, but not the kind of groups one would expect with a Ransom Rest.  Just my opinion.

Also, I doubt the Dan Wesson Valor (or similar) was built to the same specifications as one of the gunsmiths in this forum.  At best, it's maybe ready to send to one of them.  Again, just my opinion.

Good reading:   https://www.bullseyeforum.net/t3365-dan-wesson-for-a-be-gun
Should apply to most over-the-counter 1911 guns.
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Post by David R on 3/23/2019, 2:44 pm

I read the thread.     I have two, a PM-9 that will consistently shoot under an inch at 25 yards.  I have not shot it at 50 yet.   The valor in 45 does not do quite as well, like 1.5" to 2" @ 25 yards and I just shot it at 50 for the first time with some Zero 185 JHP loaded at various lengths with 4.5 Bullseye.  

Triggers are easy to get  2.5 lbs.  Both are there now.    Slide fit is excellent on both.

The bushing on the PM-9 was quite loose.  I ordered an angle bored bushing from EGW and fit it to the slide.  This got me down below 1" at 25 with handloads.

I replaced the bushing in the valor too.    I am still getting 1.25 to 1.75 @ 25 yards with my handloads.   It was the Federal 185 target that got me down to 1.25" @ 25.    I have no problem having a Kart barrel installed, I just want to exhaust all my own possibilities first.  I just started using the Zero 185 JHP
thinking this is the last piece of the puzzle.   I checked the slide stop fit with the barrel ramp using a sharpie and it looks pretty good.  

After having Kimber and Springfield, Dan Wesson is a cut above.  

Outdoor season starts in a couple months.    I bought a used Bullseye gun with a Wegand frame  scope mount and an Ultra dot.  I can shoot this if the Dan Wesson needs to be sent out.    In the end, one will be for me and one for the wife.  

I have no place to use a Ransom rest, but sure would like to. 

David

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Post by Allgoodhits on 3/23/2019, 2:59 pm

Not all guns are equal, not all ammos are equal, not all shooters are equal, not all mechanical testing devices are equal, including Ranson Rests, and finally not all Ranson rest operators are equal.

Other than all that, we are all equal, except scores. They're not equal either.
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Post by james r chapman on 3/23/2019, 3:39 pm

Remember, a ransom machine rest test the complete pistol assembly’s, slide, frame, bushing, barrel as a unit. If one is loose it will affect the rest accuracy.

Handheld with irons or a slide mounted scope will not do this and often will be more accurate than a machine rest. 

As such, a tight ransom rest group will show a tighter toleranced complete gun system.
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Post by zanemoseley on 3/23/2019, 5:10 pm

GerhardG wrote:Ransom Rest will win every time! SO I don't care who made the dam gun as long as it's decent, say a Springfield Range Officer and a Ruger Mark IV which I use. Yes, I did a few upgrades on the Ruger nothing on the RO. I used a simple two-handed benched hold at 25 yards and printed very nice cloverleaves. So that Ransom Rest sure could up my game a lot!

So why the hell would I spend a nickel on a German or Italian import? Or throw additional money on a Les Baer, Wilson, Accuracy X etc... because
when the human interface steps to the firing line all sorts of new shit is going to go wrong.

 Now don't get me wrong I am perfectly willing to try shooting a course with the Ransom rest but fellas it's to dam heavy to hold up and too hard to keep it from moving around during the rapid-fire stage!

 So if it's OK you with you folks I am just going to keep on practicing 3 days per week and save my money for more ammo and range time. You can keep your Ransom Rest and all those test results with those pricy guns to yourself. 

Thank you very much

Just curious, how long have you been shooting and what scores do you average.

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Post by GerhardG on 3/23/2019, 5:49 pm

I've been shooting since the mid-80's. Started with IPSC did a little bit of IDPA. I h.ave been reloading with a Dillon RL550B since the 90's 

 Started bullseye in March 2018 with an introductory class at my club Illinois State Rifle Association in Bonfield Il.  Shot some silly high score on the short line so I was asked to join a pistol team. The Bullshooters are part of the Tri-County Pistol League.  Our team scores with their names removed except for mine are below.
 I constantly am getting help from the various team members and I am always hearing about the equipment. My Ruger benched at 25 yards will print 1.5 in groups or less. My Range Officer will do clover leaves also. I have total confidence in my equipment and when practicing the short line 30 rounds I may have 4 outside the black of the 30.
 Hear are my teammates scores.

BSEX16265.616260.2
MK11254.911249.6
EX16284.316279.4
SS17275.517246.9
MK14233.814213.0
SS14249.714248.5
MK11270.011247.5
UNGunther, G8237.38176.1
MA14281.614280.4
MK15242.315209.8
MK12242.312193.0
EX10258.110246.0
SS15256.915264.8
MK6222.35222.4
EX14249.914247.9
EX15280.415263.1
SS15261.115247.5

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Post by GerhardG on 3/23/2019, 5:54 pm

I am working hard with my Springfield Range Officer 45 and just starting to improve but I am using Iron sights only with it. 
 My Ruger  Mark IV Competition and Volquartzen trigger and more is with an Ultradot.
 I am having fun and learning a lot thanks to this forum and my teammates.
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Post by GerhardG on 3/23/2019, 6:00 pm

I seem to be dropping almost 20 to 35 points in a competition.  Match Pressure, alibi's, firing on the buzzer, you name it I've messed up and rattled my nerves.
 I have talked with KC and if I want a wadgun he or someone like him will be the one to biuild it for me. But first several issues to consider and try like a roll trigger and so on...

 You've got to love this sport.
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Post by mikemyers on 3/23/2019, 6:08 pm

GerhardG wrote:

EX16265.616260.2
MK11254.911249.6
EX16284.316279.4
SS17275.517246.9
MK14233.814213.0
SS14249.714248.5
MK11270.011247.5
UNGunther, G8237.38176.1
MA14281.614280.4
MK15242.315209.8
MK12242.312193.0
EX10258.110246.0
SS15256.915264.8
MK6222.35222.4
EX14249.914247.9
EX15280.415263.1
SS15261.115247.5

Could you please add titles to those columns?  I don't have enough experience at this, and I have no idea what they mean.

Is this for Bullseye or something else?
Is it shooting one-handed or two-handed?
Sorry for the lack of formatting - not sure how to post just the data.....

.....just trying to understand....
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Post by GerhardG on 3/23/2019, 6:18 pm

Yes Sir
 The scores are for Bullseye Indoor 25 yard 30 rounds .22 and 30 rounds Center fire. I'll do them again.

RimCF
ClubClassNameShotAvgShotAvg
AHMA7286.97268.0
SS10281.95256.6
MK6243.0
MK10214.711213.6
UN11239.211217.6
MA14280.114272.8
SS9268.49254.7
EX14272.214247.4
UN3204.0392.7
SS13245.813235.7
SS15265.715265.4
MK14214.714220.4
SS9255.49261.0
MA11286.311271.7
EX13251.213225.3
BSEX16265.616260.2
MK11254.911249.6
EX16284.316279.4
SS17275.517246.9
MK14233.814213.0
SS14249.714248.5
MK11270.011247.5
UNGunther, G8237.38176.1
MA14281.614280.4
MK15242.315209.8
MK12242.312193.0
EX10258.110246.0
SS15256.915264.8
MK6222.35222.4
EX14249.914247.9
EX15280.415263.1
SS15261.115247.5
EX17274.517269.8
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