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trigger control

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Post by inthebeech 3/28/2019, 11:07 am

Just came back from a Zins clinic and over the weekend thought of something that appears to be a conflict of two separate instructions regarding the shot processes for slow and sustained.  Looking for comments.

Process step slow fire; The initiation of the trigger pull happens with a visual cue; that is the settling of the sights beneath or on the bull with your normal arc of movement; i.e. the acquisition of good sight picture.  It is a conditioned response; if practiced enough it eventually happens on its own - there need be no conscious message to the trigger finger to begin pulling-your finger becomes conditioned to do this when the correct sight picture is acquired.

Process step sustained fire; Settle the sights on the edge of the target frame and through experience / trials, decide when to begin activating the trigger (This is more than just taking up pretravel.  This is actually starting to either move a roll trigger or with a sharp trigger you are starting in on the 3.5 pounds)  and begin your pull PRIOR to the target turning.  Continue pulling which is why you may discharge while the target is edgewise.  This is not a bad thing when starting out; it actually shows that you are correctly beginning your pull before the target turns.  Experience will fix the relatively small timing error.

If the act of pulling the trigger in slow fire is initiated automatically with the view of a good sight picture and this becomes conditioned (no conscious message to the trigger finger necessary), then would we not destroy this conditioning when we have to consciously begin the squeeze while lining up the sights on the edge of the target frame (no sight picture yet) in sustained fire?  Isn't our head telling us not to begin the squeeze since we do not yet have a correct sight picture which is the technique we learned over many thousands of rounds in slow fire training.

Both of these process steps were taught in the class but I did not think then to ask about the apparent contradiction.

Thanks guys.
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Post by dronning 3/28/2019, 2:36 pm

I always determine where the proper sight picture will be when the target is edged.  Even if the bull isn't visible you should be able to determine where it will be.  It takes some practice but for me it improves my concentration on the string.

If you waited for the bull to be fully exposed before you started you will be behind and probably have a tendency to grab the shot. 
- Dave
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Post by john bickar 3/28/2019, 2:54 pm

For me (I'm no Brian Zins), if I initiate the trigger movement when the sights/dot settle into the bull, that is too late.

When I am shooting my best SF, I am taking up the first stage weight and a good bit of the second when I am above the target and settling in, so that I have a small percentage (~25% or so) to squeeze once I am settled into my aiming area.

It's a virtuous circle - if my physical fitness and training are such that I can hold within an acceptable arc of movement for longer, I am more confident on the trigger. If I am more confident on the trigger, I need a shorter window for holding in an acceptable arc of movement.
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Post by rreid 3/28/2019, 8:38 pm

I don't think there's a contradiction at all.  Your shot is breaking as the dot is settling into an acceptable "arc of movement."  Sight picture has nothing to do with it. You can dry fire on a white wall or shoot at a blank target and see the dot settling.
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Post by inthebeech 3/29/2019, 5:26 am

Ralph,
Here's a different way of explaining it.

Slow fire:  You've just trained your finger to start movement at the sight of a good sight picture (irons in proper alignment to a bull or a dot centered on the bull), always with this image and never with any other image entering your eyes.  There is no other condition in the world under which your finger begins smooth and uninterrupted movement.

Sustained:  You now have to ignore the above and start finger movement when your sights are on the target frame edge before it turns; this is absolutely contradictory to what you just spent months training your finger to respond to.  There is no bull and certainly no bull to which you settle your sights/dot, yet you are starting trigger movement which you just trained your finger never to do.
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Post by CR10X 3/29/2019, 5:45 am

Here's another way to interpret this with just a subtle change in wording that works for me.  These are my words, YMMV

Slow fire:  You've just trained your finger to start and complete the trigger start movement at the sight of a good sight picture (irons in proper alignment to a bull or a dot centered on the bull), always with this image and never with any other image entering your eyes.  There is no other condition in the world under which your finger begins  completes smooth and uninterrupted movement.


Sustained:   You now have to ignore the above and Start finger movement when your sights are on the target frame edge before it turns; this is absolutely contradictory to what you just spent months training your finger to respond to.  There is no bull and certainly no so as to complete the trigger when the bull sight picture appears.  You have already to which you settled your sights/dot, yet and you are starting uninterrupted trigger movement which you just trained your finger never to do and complete when you see the same image as above.


CR

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Post by dronning 3/29/2019, 8:08 am

CR10X wrote:Here's another way to interpret this with just a subtle change in wording that works for me.  These are my words, YMMV

Slow fire:  You've just trained your finger to start and complete the trigger start movement at the sight of a good sight picture (irons in proper alignment to a bull or a dot centered on the bull), always with this image and never with any other image entering your eyes.  There is no other condition in the world under which your finger begins  completes smooth and uninterrupted movement.


Sustained:   You now have to ignore the above and Start finger movement when your sights are on the target frame edge before it turns; this is absolutely contradictory to what you just spent months training your finger to respond to.  There is no bull and certainly no so as to complete the trigger when the bull sight picture appears.  You have already to which you settled your sights/dot, yet and you are starting uninterrupted trigger movement which you just trained your finger never to do and complete when you see the same image as above.


CR
^^^Well said! This is what I was trying to say above and is EXACTLY how it should be done.  This is also why 1 shot drills with a turning target are so valuable.  Learn where to settle and trust the process.
- Dave
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Post by inthebeech 3/29/2019, 8:42 am

I think Zins was right.  As soon as I told him I was a mechanical engineer, he suggested I try to get a refund because I will overthink too much and have an exponentially more difficult time "getting it."  I do appreciate your efforts though.
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Post by dronning 3/29/2019, 8:54 am

inthebeech wrote:I think Zins was right.  As soon as I told him I was a mechanical engineer, he suggested I try to get a refund because I will overthink too much and have an exponentially more difficult time "getting it."  I do appreciate your efforts though.
Stink'n Think'n   lol!
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Post by weber1b 3/29/2019, 8:56 am

And this is why I love coming to this sight.

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Post by john bickar 3/29/2019, 9:30 am

inthebeech wrote:I think Zins was right.  As soon as I told him I was a mechanical engineer, he suggested I try to get a refund because I will overthink too much and have an exponentially more difficult time "getting it."  I do appreciate your efforts though.

Pistol shooting is psychology, not engineering.

Engineers often have trouble getting that.
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Post by joy2shoot 3/29/2019, 9:38 am

inthebeech wrote:Just came back from a Zins clinic ...
I took a Zins clinic a few years ago and he encouraged us that if we have any post clinic questions to email him.  I did several times and he always promptly responded.  As Brian told us multiple times during the clinic, if we want to know what he meant, ask him.

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Post by inthebeech 3/29/2019, 10:23 am

I will as soon as I figure out where the workbook, which has his personal email,  was placed when I got home.  It is currently in hiding.
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Post by dronning 3/29/2019, 10:31 am

inthebeech wrote:I will as soon as I figure out where the workbook, which has his personal email,  was placed when I got home.  It is currently in hiding.
Try message him on this site his screen name is:  12XNPC
- Dave
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Post by joy2shoot 3/29/2019, 10:42 am

inthebeech wrote:I will as soon as I figure out where the workbook, which has his personal email,  was placed when I got home.  It is currently in hiding.
PM sent

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Post by mikemyers 3/29/2019, 12:56 pm

inthebeech wrote:I think Zins was right.  As soon as I told him I was a mechanical engineer, he suggested I try to get a refund because I will overthink too much and have an exponentially more difficult time "getting it."  I do appreciate your efforts though.
No wonder I have so much trouble - for the majority of my life, I was doing engineering work.

Yeah, to much "thinking", but I have never yet found the on/off switch, other than three glasses of wine.
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Post by inthebeech 3/29/2019, 2:25 pm

There is no on/off.  I did an FEA on my hammock stand.
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Post by joy2shoot 3/29/2019, 3:04 pm

I was an IT 'guy' and my constantly questioning brain was great for my career.  But I don't allow it to be an excuse for my shooting as I believe CR10X is an engineer.

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Post by Wobbley 3/29/2019, 6:38 pm

As an engineer, I find it sometimes hard to not overthink.  Then I remember the wise old greybeard who once said “better is the enemy of good”.
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Post by 243winxb 3/30/2019, 8:49 am

Sustained fire -Taking up trigger slack  while aiming at the frame,  is a good way to loose 10 points, when gun fires unexpectedly.  

More so with lighter triggers. 

The Bullseye turning targets turned slowly, when compaired to the ISU target that snapped around , in my day.  ISU  started with gun  down. 

And i dont have any of the higher education problems.  Very Happy
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Post by dronning 3/30/2019, 9:47 am

243winxb wrote:Sustained fire -Taking up trigger slack  while aiming at the frame,  is a good way to loose 10 points, when gun fires unexpectedly.  
If your trigger control is not good don't attempt but I'd guess most Masters/High Masters do this.  

It does kind of suck when the targets don't turn due to a range issue and you are 1/2 way through your trigger pull on your short roll trigger!!  What a Face
- Dave
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Post by farmboy 3/30/2019, 12:29 pm

243winxb wrote:Sustained fire -Taking up trigger slack  while aiming at the frame,  is a good way to loose 10 points, when gun fires unexpectedly.  

More so with lighter triggers. 

The Bullseye turning targets turned slowly, when compaired to the ISU target that snapped around , in my day.  ISU  started with gun  down. 

And i dont have any of the higher education problems.  Very Happy
I don't wish to start an argument but  IMHO would suggest a person needs to dry fire more to learn their trigger if they are surprised when it goes off that much.
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Post by inthebeech 3/30/2019, 12:40 pm

 Brian and I have been going back and forth and there is an easy, albeit oversimplified, explanation which eliminates the contradiction.


In BOTH slow and sustained, the initiation of uninterrupted pressure on the trigger happens NOT with the appearance of a good sight picture, but instead at the appearance of good sight alignment.  In this way the event (sight alignment) itself, since it occurs with both slow and sustained, can be the one and only visual cue in BOTH stages that initiates finger pressure.  I confirmed with Brian that what is stated in the Army's advanced marksmanship manual, is also true.  That is with the appearance later of the actual bull, either as the gun settles in slow or when the frame turns in sustained, attention shifts to the front sight (or some smaller detail on the sight) where it remains through the break.   Initially this conscious shift of attention may cause the finger to stop pulling but with about a million dry fires, the movement will not be interrupted unless an indicator appears.  This seems to all make sense now.
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