Camp Perry First Timer

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Post by Bheath on 4/10/2019, 5:48 pm

First topic message reminder :

I am thinking about going to Camp Perry for the first time.  Can not find what goes on the 7/7-7/12. Do you need to get there on the 6th. there doesn't seem to be a program I can find.
Thanks in advance for the help.

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Post by CR10X on 4/17/2019, 10:09 am

"I have little competition experience, but one thing that bugged me at competition was the use of replacement centers."


At a buck a backer plus the extra full size target, that's over $27.00 more per match for a local 2700 match.  Let me know how your match works out when you more than double the entry fee.  Take a picture, its cheaper.

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Post by Slartybartfast on 4/17/2019, 10:25 am

CR10X wrote:At a buck a backer plus the extra full size target, that's over $27.00 more per match for a local 2700 match.  Let me know how your match works out when you more than double the entry fee.  Take a picture, its cheaper.
I wasn't advocating taking the backers home.
Backers don't need replaced with every relay, but the 20cents per target saved certainly weren't worth it. And this wasn't a simple local match it was an annual event.
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Post by SteveT on 4/17/2019, 11:19 am

Cecil raised a good point so let's expand a bit more on scoring. Everyone feel free to contribute thoughts, edits, requests, criticisms etc. I'll compile it all at the end.

Scoring
For the most part scoring is done the same at Camp Perry as most local matches, except the RO/Referees will be more strict about the rules.

You always pass score cards to the right and score the shooter on your left. If you are in the first position (far left) you will not score a target. If you are in the last position (far right) a range official will score you.

If you finish scoring before your shooter, write the score, with X's on the face of the target. Usually that is sufficient, however, when you sign the score card you sign for the individual scores, not the total. If the numbers in the boxes are wrong, you get the wrong score. If you doubt your scorer, ask to look at the score card before you remove the target from the frame. I speak from experience here, removing the target from the frame indicates acceptance of the score. You can only challenge a target if the range official removes it from the frame.

Range officials don't supply overlays. You can usually borrow one from someone on the line, but it is better to bring your own. That way you also have one to loan to your scorer if needed.

If you disagree with your scorer, call for a plug. Just shout out "Plug on 42" or whatever firing point you are on. A RO will come over, verify there are 10 holes on the target and ask which hole you want plugged.  You can only plug a hole if there are 10 holes on the target and if the hole in question is a single hole. If you have 2 holes touching each other, even a tiny bit, they won't plug the hole.

Plugging is free and unlimited, but if you call for it too much you will annoy the ROs. If your scoring is changed after looking at the plug, change the way you score. This can be particularly true for people who haven't scored a lot of JHP or RN bullets. 45 RN / JHP punch small clean holes that look more like a 38. It is a 45 hole. 

The RO will insert the plug, then step back. The scorer and shooter can both look at it. If you agree it's out, the shooter should tell the range officer "I agree it's out". If you agree it's in, the scorer should tell the RO "we agree it's in", change the score on the score card and initial the change. The RO will mark the hole with PO or PI to indicate the hole was plugged and shown to be Out or In. 

Challenges
If you still don't agree you can challenge the target. Do not remove the plug. The shooter should tell the RO I am going to challenge the target. In 2018 the challenge fee was $3 ($8 in teams matches). They do not give change. If all you have is a $20, you can challenge with that, but you won't get change back. The RO will take your money and fill out a challenge slip with you position, competitor number and the scorer's score and staple it all to the target. They will then take your target away to the referees.

The other situation to challenge a target is if your scorer can't find all 10 holes, but you are sure it is there. Call out to the nearest RO "Challenge on 42" or whatever your firing point. Tell them you are challenging the number of hits. The process is the same, he will fill out the slip and staple it plus the fee to the target and take it to the referees.

In a challenge, the referees will score the entire target, not just the questioned hole. If you think one shot might be in, but your scorer was generous on 2 other holes it might come back with a lower score. The score from the referees is your final score whether it is higher or lower. After the challenge a RO will bring you a supplemental score card. This is stapled to your regular score card. If the score is the same the scorer's, you forfeit the challenge fee. If they find a different score, you get your fee back.

This isn't really important, but it's pretty cool the way they look for missing shots. If they can't see 10 holes, they have a tapered gage called the carrot, they drop in each hole. If it drops deeper in one hole than the others, that hole is a little bigger and is the missing shot.

The final level of escalation is a formal protest. This is extremely rare. I have no experience with it. Look it up in the program book if you think you need to know.

A Little More on Score Cards
At Camp Perry you turn in score cards after each sub-match, Slow Fire, NMC, Timed Fire and Rapid Fire. When you finish scoring the second SF target, sign the "scorer" position on the card and hand it to the shooter or tuck it between the frame and the target. Make sure it is secure, I would hate to loose another shooters card because the wind whipped up and took it out into Lake Erie. Make sure your get your score card from your scorer and make sure it is signed. You sign in the "Shooter" position and turn it in. If there are not 2 signatures, you get a big fat 0 score. Usually the ROs downrange will collect score cards. If you forget to give it to them or need to go back to the firing point, then take your card to the center tower and the CRO/ACRO or another official will take it. If you forget, turn in your score card as soon as possible to the tower. This sometimes happens after the last match when we are all in a hurry to go eat. Don't forget. I don't know what would happen if you waited for an hour and tried to turn it in. I don't want to find out.


Last edited by SteveT on 4/17/2019, 11:45 am; edited 1 time in total
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Post by valbern67 on 4/17/2019, 11:22 am

Why are you risking confiscation?

Val
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Post by SteveT on 4/17/2019, 11:32 am

valbern67 wrote:Why are you risking confiscation?

Val
Transporting guns across the border (he lives in Canada). If the paperwork isn't right the border patrol on either side can confiscate illegal goods, and they get to decide what is illegal. Maybe you'll get them back after a long legal battle. Maybe not.
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Post by Slartybartfast on 4/17/2019, 4:36 pm

SteveT wrote:
valbern67 wrote:Why are you risking confiscation?
Val
Transporting guns across the border (he lives in Canada). If the paperwork isn't right the border patrol on either side can confiscate illegal goods, and they get to decide what is illegal. Maybe you'll get them back after a long legal battle. Maybe not.
Yeah, that "Maybe not" is something to consider. U.S. Customs and Border Protection has full jurisdiction at the crossing and can really make any decision they want. Even if I have the U.S. Department of Justice Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives import license (after declaring all firearms and all makes, types, and quantity of ammunition form-6nia) and the required invite/registration there's always the risk of refusal and seizure by CBP. Maybe I'm just being paranoid. Maybe it's straight forward and I'm worrying about nothing. I know lots of hunters do it without issue.
If I understand correctly though, you need to apply WAY in advance.
The ammunition question is one that I know people break the law all the time on. Technically as a non-resident alien it is a federal crime to purchase ammunition once in the USA and against ITAR to attempt to export it. But one guy I know who has been to hunt says he bought all his ammo while in the US.
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Post by DA/SA on 4/17/2019, 6:07 pm

Slartybartfast wrote:
CR10X wrote:At a buck a backer plus the extra full size target, that's over $27.00 more per match for a local 2700 match.  Let me know how your match works out when you more than double the entry fee.  Take a picture, its cheaper.
I wasn't advocating taking the backers home.
Backers don't need replaced with every relay, but the 20cents per target saved certainly weren't worth it. And this wasn't a simple local match it was an annual event.
Is there any rule stopping you from bringing your own full size NRA targets and using them if you don't like repair centers?

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Post by SteveT on 4/18/2019, 7:56 am

DA/SA wrote:

Is there any rule stopping you from bringing your own full size NRA targets and using them if you don't like repair centers?

14.11 Scoring Altered Targets - Targets (In this instance the
term “Target” also includes the target frame) intentionally altered
or marked to benefit a shooter over other competitors will not be
scored.

This is normally interpreted as anything that makes one target look different from any other.
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Post by DA/SA on 4/18/2019, 8:04 am

So, I would interpret that as a "no" since everyone else would be shooting repair centers over the larger target.

I get that, as it does appear different.

Not quite the same, but: I used to just shoot repair centers on a cardboard backer for practice, but discovered at my first match that a repair center over a full size target changed the appearance of the target through the scope due to the additional glare from the bright Florida morning sun, so I now shoot full size targets with repair centers over them. I learned a lot that first match...

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Post by James Hensler on 4/18/2019, 7:03 pm

Ok stupid question here but help me out please
Do we just show up or do we ha e to register online at some point? I am not talking about the CMP matches just the NRA national matches
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Post by CR10X on 4/19/2019, 5:51 am

They did not post on the page, but your can start with this page> 

https://competitions.nra.org/competitions/nra-national-matches/national-pistol-championships/

select the tab that says "Competitions" in the blue bar at the top, then select "Competitions Registration Portal" from the drop down menu.

Or just go here>

https://competitor.nra.org/

Register / Login in on the Competitor Portal.  Then you can register for matches. 

Click on the drop down "Menu" at the top, then select "National Matches", then pick the one you want.

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Post by Outthere on 4/19/2019, 6:35 am

Slartybartfast wrote:
SteveT wrote:
valbern67 wrote:Why are you risking confiscation?
Val
Transporting guns across the border (he lives in Canada). If the paperwork isn't right the border patrol on either side can confiscate illegal goods, and they get to decide what is illegal. Maybe you'll get them back after a long legal battle. Maybe not.
Yeah, that "Maybe not" is something to consider. U.S. Customs and Border Protection has full jurisdiction at the crossing and can really make any decision they want. Even if I have the U.S. Department of Justice Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives import license (after declaring all firearms and all makes, types, and quantity of ammunition form-6nia) and the required invite/registration there's always the risk of refusal and seizure by CBP. Maybe I'm just being paranoid. Maybe it's straight forward and I'm worrying about nothing. I know lots of hunters do it without issue.
If I understand correctly though, you need to apply WAY in advance.
The ammunition question is one that I know people break the law all the time on. Technically as a non-resident alien it is a federal crime to purchase ammunition once in the USA and against ITAR to attempt to export it. But one guy I know who has been to hunt says he bought all his ammo while in the US.
I wouldn't even try to cross the border either way with handguns.

The Canadian border guys are power-crazed a******s. Especially if you have a USA based license plate on your car.

My 2 cents.

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Post by jglenn21 on 4/19/2019, 8:19 am

3m would go out of business if we( I ) didn't have to past targets.
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Post by James Hensler on 4/19/2019, 5:28 pm

Ok I went to the Portal and Created an account t. I only can see forms for W-9 and Staff
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Post by CR10X on 4/20/2019, 6:34 am

if you are on that page then: 

select the tab that says "Competitions" in the blue bar at the top, then select "Competitions Registration Portal" from the drop down menu.

Login in on the Competitor Portal.  Then you can register for matches. 

Click on the drop down "Menu" at the top, then select "National Matches", then pick the one you want.

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Post by James Hensler on 4/20/2019, 10:03 am

Sir have you tried that yet? Only the Staff and W4 forms show up on my computer
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Post by bruce martindale on 4/20/2019, 11:19 am

Don't forget to get the remainder of your scorecards back from your scorer. He may not be present for your next match.

I gave up going to Canada when they classified each make and model of air pistol as a firearm because some jerks informed them that the velocity could be changed with an adjustment. Technically correct and totally useless.

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Post by CR10X on 4/20/2019, 4:44 pm

Yes, I have. I am registered for the match and it shows up when you login in if you are.

Login and follow the directions I gave above. The drop down menu is at the top of the page. You are looking in the wrong place. You will not find how to register under any of those items at the bottom.

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Post by James Hensler on 4/20/2019, 6:13 pm

Never popped up on my computer but it does on my IPad
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Post by Arthur on 4/22/2019, 8:13 pm

If you are in prep almost as soon as you claim your point, do people generally use brass catchers? I do see screens attached to the pistol boxes to keep brass from hitting you.

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Post by james r chapman on 4/23/2019, 5:02 am

Arthur wrote:If you are in prep almost as soon as you claim your point, do people generally use brass catchers? I do see screens attached to the pistol boxes to keep brass from hitting you.
Seems everyone except military shooters lol
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Post by Slartybartfast on 4/23/2019, 10:39 am

bruce martindale wrote:I gave up going to Canada when they classified each make and model of air pistol as a firearm because some jerks informed them that the velocity could be changed with an adjustment.  Technically correct and totally useless.

Some jerks? Sorry, but that is the law up here. Greater than 500fps or 5.7 joules muzzle energy and any barreled weapon is considered a firearm.
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Post by SteveT on 4/23/2019, 3:51 pm

Arthur wrote:If you are in prep almost as soon as you claim your point, do people generally use brass catchers? I do see screens attached to the pistol boxes to keep brass from hitting you.
At Camp Perry I don't break down my brass catcher. When we are called to the line, I take it out of my cart, set it on the bench and adjust the height. It only takes 10-20 seconds. If you feel rushed, don't set it up until after the first slow fire. At Camp Perry they never end SF early and scoring takes a long time so there should be time. Worst case you lose 10 pcs of brass.

I would say around 1/3 of people at Camp Perry use brass catchers. If you don't, expect to lose some of your brass, the grass is often deep and grows as the week goes on.

I don't use a brass catcher on Prelims or 22 day. I lose some brass, but when I'm spending nearly $1,000 to be there, I don't fret over a few dollars worth of brass. 

I have a friend who always uses the brass catcher. It is an alignment aid. If his arm is 1-2" from the brass catcher, he is lined up on the right target. It's part of his process and prevents cross fires.
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Post by CR10X on 4/23/2019, 4:36 pm

Well, here's my take on brass catchers at Perry.  

You're probably traveling hundreds of miles; paid more money than any other match you've shot before; you're standing under the open sun, rain, wind, uneven ground; with benches at 25 and 50 yards and usually a different height than you're used too;, shooting under probably the most self imposed pressure you've ever had and you want to worry about another thing to take along, set up, keep from tipping over just to save a couple hundred pieces of brass?  

Think simplicity; guns, gun box, its tie down and related gun box stuff (at least your screwdriver, pen and scorecards), ammo, chair, water, small snack, enough cash for scorecards or challenge, h at with ID card and just relax.  You only need the .22 and .45 on preliminary day.  Other days you have your specific caliber gun and its backup. 

You all have fun, but just like camping...don't pack in more than you can carry out.

CR

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Post by Michael C on 4/23/2019, 5:31 pm

I am going for my first time too this year and just completed the registration. I am shooting both NRA and CMP. I estimate my round count (I only shoot service pistol) at about 700 rounds which includes enough for alibis. Does this sound right? Mike

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