CMP Highpower Rifle

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Post by Slartybartfast on 5/16/2019, 4:55 pm

Okay, so while I'm still struggling to get ATF approval to get my current firearms into the USA for a match the idea of shooting regularly in available matches in the USA has grabbed my focus and I'm looking for a 45 pistol and a 22LR sporting rifle and a Highpower rifle.

So for Highpower rifle I'm looking at my options. Not familiar with the different courses of fire, so just looking at my rifle options.

- M16/AR15-Type Service Rifle 
Would like to own one, but they're restricted weapons here. Treated like handguns and transport and where you can fire is limited. Would be very difficult to practice with one.

- CMP Alternative Rifle
Certainly a possibility. I'll assume that a resident of a country where AR15 are problematic to own will be considered similar to the rule "Residents of states where the ownership of a Service Rifle that complies with Rule 4.1.1 is prohibited by law may use a CMP Alternative Rifle".
I'm guessing any of these would qualify:
https://www.firearmsoutletcanada.com/kodiak-defense-wk180c-223-18-7.html
https://www.firearmsoutletcanada.com/ruger-mini-14-synthetic-5-56-nato-18-5.html
https://www.firearmsoutletcanada.com/swiss-arms-black-special-5-56-nato-20-1-7-twist-diopter.html
https://www.firearmsoutletcanada.com/bushmaster-acr-dmr-223-rem-18-6.html

But it seems the HK SL8 might not be acceptable (.225 not 5.56)
https://www.firearmsoutletcanada.com/heckler-koch-sl8-5-223-rem-20.html#.XN3Z9RRKjRY

- M14/M1A-Type Service Rifle
I wonder if a Chinese made Norinco could be imported temporarily for competition. But the rules say a 20 round magazine is necesssary. We're limited to 5 max.
https://www.firearmsoutletcanada.com/norinco-m14-m305-308-win-22.html
Or an actual Springfield?
https://www.firearmsoutletcanada.com/springfield-national-match-m1a-308-win-22-walnut.html#.XN3bdxRKjRY

- CMP Match Rifle
- Long Range Service Rifle
Would an AR-10 derivative rifle be acceptable?
https://www.firearmsoutletcanada.com/black-creek-labs-bcl102-308-win-18-5-flat-dark-earth.html
https://www.firearmsoutletcanada.com/stag-arms-stag-10-gi-m-lok-308-win-18-75-left-hand-rifle.html

Or if I win the Lotto: https://www.firearmsoutletcanada.com/heckler-koch-g28-308-win-16-5.html

Opinions?
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Post by Wobbley on 5/16/2019, 6:04 pm

If you’re interested in Highpower Rifle, there are other options besides AR-15 variants.  Also remember the CMP and the NRA don’t cooperate much in Highpower either.  That said, it’s a fun hobby.  You can shoot a bolt actioned rifle in any centerfire cartridge.  Most seem to have gone to a “Chassis” system rather than a conventional wood stock.  A “hot” caliber to shoot now would be a 6mmXC or 6 Creedmoor, but there are others.  A Remington 700 setup in a chassis with Detachable mags is perfectly acceptable.  You still have to crank the bolthandle but that is compensated by the better accuracy at 600.  

Please note that for CMP eligibility, you might need to be a “US person”.  Though citizenship is not always required, you likely need to be a US resident with a Social Security number.  I’d send the CMP an email and confirm.

Your Norinco would be ok and when I built match M1As I built one up to shoot better.  Nowhere as good as a M1A but it shot all in the 10 ring at 200.  You can load 5 and 5 I think if your mags are pinned.

For info on chassis systems for Highpower: http://www.gotxring.com/new-universal-match-rifle-sytem/
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Post by john bickar on 5/16/2019, 11:24 pm

Regarding the AR-15 platform, and "would be difficult to practice with one", an advantage that the platform has is its modularity.

You could put together a service rifle lower and put either a .22LR or airgun upper on it for training. This is what I did, shooting a .22LR upper for training. The only full-course shooting that I did with .223 was at matches. I went Distinguished on a single .223 barrel. (It still even has some life in it at ~2,700 rounds.)

Of course, now with scopes, you'll likely need a scope for your .223 upper and a scope for your .22/airgun "training" upper, so now you're digging deeper into your shooting fund. Or you can still shoot iron sights. But it can be done.

I know nothing of Canadian firearms laws, so I can't speak to the legality of this approach. My service rifle receiver was registered as a .223 "rifle", so throwing a .22 upper on it didn't make it illegal. It would be illegal in California to register an AR receiver as a .22LR and then put a .223 upper on it (depending on how the lower was configured. CA laws are very strange.)
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Post by NuJudge on 5/17/2019, 5:27 am

The Garand is still approved for Service Rifle class in the US, and people get less excited when they see it.

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Post by Slartybartfast on 5/17/2019, 8:52 am

john bickar wrote:Regarding the AR-15 platform, and "would be difficult to practice with one", an advantage that the platform has is its modularity.
Unfortunately it's not just the calibre that's an issue, it's the lower receiver that's registered and considered a restricted firearm.
The transportation restrictions don't bother me too much, but can only shoot at a gun club and my gun club is not only indoor, but pistol calibre only.
So yes, I could get a pistol calibre upper and shoot short range at my club (no prone either) but I could never shoot any calibre from it on crown land or other places you can shoot non-restricted firearms.
Although getting a case for a restricted rifle will be more expensive. Restricted firearms must be transported in locked hard shell cases. Non-restricted can be transported unloaded with just a trigger lock.
Then, the clubs that do allow non-members to pay a day fee and shoot only allow it for non-restricted firearms. So a restricted long gun means shooting pistol calibre only except for competition. Or joining another club, which would be a major expense as the next closest club that has pistol and allows rifle is more than twice the membership fee I pay now. With a non-restricted rifle I can shoot at that other club for 18$ per day.


Last edited by Slartybartfast on 5/17/2019, 8:55 am; edited 1 time in total
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Post by Slartybartfast on 5/17/2019, 8:54 am

NuJudge wrote:The Garand is still approved for Service Rifle class in the US, and people get less excited when they see it.
Don't particularly care about anyone getting excited. No neighbour has ever seen my pistols, and my rifles go into the car in a soft case straight from the garage.
But the BCL 108 or a Robinson Arms looks good to me.
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Post by Wobbley on 5/17/2019, 10:41 am

The “Service Rifle” category basically covers only US service rifles and their clones. Everything else would be a “Match Rifle”. Even modified service rifles ( longer barrels, some tube forends, heavily modified Garands ) go into match rifle. This is in contrast to Pistol where almost any pistol in 9mm or larger that saw service anywhere is OK to use. So that limits it to M1s, M14 (clones), M16s, M4s and their clones THAT MEET limitations. In your situation, that would be an M1A or an M1 in 308. Or get a chassis bolt gun.
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Post by Slartybartfast on 5/17/2019, 10:57 am

Wobbley wrote:Please note that for CMP eligibility, you might need to be a “US person”.  Though citizenship is not always required, you likely need to be a US resident with a Social Security number.  I’d send the CMP an email and confirm.
Well...
I've registered on the CMP website, have a competitor number, and I'm registered in a couple upcoming CMP EIC matches.
If it turns out I'm in anyway ineligible for awards or score keeping, so be it. All that really interests me is being able to participate and the organisers don't seem to have any issue whatsoever with my residence or citizenship status.
That requirement might stop me from being able to participate in the CMP games and associated activities. Which would be a disappointment.
But I just read that portion of the rulebook and the only restriction I see that might apply is I may have to have a notarised declaration to give to the CMP. Interestingly, that requirement seems to apply to ALL competitors. So do they actually enforce that rule?

CMP HIGHPOWER RIFLE AND PISTOL COMPETITION RULES 22nd Edition—2018 wrote:2.0 Competitor Eligibility
2.1 General Eligibility
All CMP-sponsored or CMP-sanctioned matches are open to any individual or team that complies with these eligibility requirements. U. S. citizenship is not required to participate. Individual membership in the CMP or a sponsoring organization is not required to participate. No person who has been convicted of a Federal or State felony or any violation of Section 922 of Title 18, U. S. Code, is eligible to participate in any activity sponsored or sanctioned by the CMP.
2.2 Eligibility Affidavit Required
Before an individual is permitted to participate in any CMP-sponsored or CMP-sanctioned competition, the sponsoring club or the CMP Competitions Department shall have on file a notarized affidavit from that individual certifying that he/she:
a) Has not been convicted of any Federal or State felony or violation of Section 922 of Title 18 United States Code, and
b) Is not a member of any organization that advocates the violent overthrow of the United States Government.
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Post by WesG on 5/17/2019, 2:40 pm

Re citizenship ... it's been a few years, but there were people coming here from Australia, and getting leg points. Some earned their badge, as did some from the UK I believe.

And I recall, possibly falsely, that they petitioned the CMP to allow them to run EIC matches in their home countries, and the CMP was happy to do so.

A phone call might confirm that.

Also, there was a time during the CA ban and registration fiasco where the CA junior team was allowed to shoot bolt guns at Perry. I do not recall whether it was for the NRA nationals alone, or whether CMP was also allowed.

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Post by Slartybartfast on 5/17/2019, 3:09 pm

WesG wrote:Also, there was a time during the CA ban and registration fiasco where the CA junior team was allowed to shoot bolt guns at Perry. I do not recall whether it was for the NRA nationals alone, or whether CMP was also allowed.
As I'm registered with the CMP with my home address, I'm happy to go with the flow.

As for bans and registration:

CMP HIGHPOWER RIFLE AND PISTOL COMPETITION RULES 22nd Edition—2018 wrote:4.1.2 CMP Alternative Rifle. Residents of states where the ownership of a Service Rifle that complies with Rule 4.1.1 is prohibited by law may use a CMP Alternative Rifle that complies with the following requirements:

I'll have to ask the CMP whetehr the fact that I could own one but Canadians with only a standard licence cannot allows invocation of that rule or not.

Equally what specifically qualifies as a "similar AR10-type commercial rifle" in rule 4.1.6

In all this looking about I found that I can buy a Norinco M14/M305A in 7.62x39mm. Not particularly relevant for this discussion, but I found the Forgotten Weapons review title amusing

CMP Highpower Rifle 2Q==Communist Heresy: Norinco's M305A M14 in 7.62x39mm"
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Post by Slartybartfast on 5/31/2019, 9:13 am

So, I've got confirmation from a couple sources now that if a Norinco rifle is included on a 6NIA form the ATF crosses it out and annotates the form with "not importable".

So no inexpensive M2 or M14 rifles for me if I want to travel to the US to compete/participate.
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Post by james r chapman on 5/31/2019, 10:48 am

Slartybartfast wrote:So, I've got confirmation from a couple sources now that if a Norinco rifle is included on a 6NIA form the ATF crosses it out and annotates the form with "not importable".

So no inexpensive M2 or M14 rifles for me if I want to travel to the US to compete/participate.
M14? !!!!
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Post by Wobbley on 5/31/2019, 12:09 pm

james r chapman wrote:
Slartybartfast wrote:So, I've got confirmation from a couple sources now that if a Norinco rifle is included on a 6NIA form the ATF crosses it out and annotates the form with "not importable".

So no inexpensive M2 or M14 rifles for me if I want to travel to the US to compete/participate.
M14? !!!!

Oddly enough, a handful of genuine M14 rifles were imported into Canada in the early 1980s. They apparently came from Israel. Probably buried in barns somewhere by now.
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Post by Slartybartfast on 5/31/2019, 12:21 pm

james r chapman wrote:
Slartybartfast wrote:So, I've got confirmation from a couple sources now that if a Norinco rifle is included on a 6NIA form the ATF crosses it out and annotates the form with "not importable".

So no inexpensive M2 or M14 rifles for me if I want to travel to the US to compete/participate.
M14? !!!!
LOL. I got the M2 wrong, meant M4.
M14 from Norinco: https://www.cabelas.ca/product/94869/norinco-m-14m305-semi-automatic-rifle-308-winchester
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Post by adminbot1911 on 5/31/2019, 12:35 pm

There are plenty of people that shoot M14/M1A with leg scores.  The problem with sourcing them from China and then trying to import to the US appears to be 30-year-old laws intended to limit importation of weapons from certain countries.  What it did was less to limit the importation of weapons than to make the value of pre-ban weapons skyrocket (look at today's 3000 dollar Polytech AK47 market).

I own Russian and Bulgarian rifles with the required number of US components to make them legal.  American companies (like Arsenal) specialize in bringing in foreign components and then getting them on the market with the help of US-manufactured parts.

There HAVE to be M14/M1A within spec for sale near where you are.  My Browning was manufactured in Quebec for Pete's sake.
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Post by Slartybartfast on 5/31/2019, 1:06 pm

adminbot1911 wrote:There HAVE to be M14/M1A within spec for sale near where you are.  My Browning was manufactured in Quebec for Pete's sake.
I said that it was out as a cheap option. If I want to spend a cart full of cash I can get a non-Chinese one.
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Post by oldsalt444 on 5/31/2019, 1:06 pm

There's a lot to said about the M1 Garand, even though not too many are seen on the line anymore.  A match prepped Garand gives up nothing in accuracy to the other auto loaders.  They can be barreled in .308 as well.

Just FYI, the rapid fire stages require firing 2 rounds, reload, then firing 8 rounds.  This was designed with the Garand in mind.
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Post by adminbot1911 on 5/31/2019, 1:13 pm

Slartybartfast wrote:
adminbot1911 wrote:There HAVE to be M14/M1A within spec for sale near where you are.  My Browning was manufactured in Quebec for Pete's sake.
I said that it was out as a cheap option. If I want to spend a cart full of cash I can get a non-Chinese one.
Sorry, I must have missed the part where you ruled it out.  Still seems like the best option, all things considered.  3000 CAD though... ouch.
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Post by Slartybartfast on 5/31/2019, 1:50 pm

oldsalt444 wrote:Just FYI, the rapid fire stages require firing 2 rounds, reload, then firing 8 rounds.  This was designed with the Garand in mind.
I thought that that would mean competition is out for me even if I buy the real deal. We're usually limited to 5 rounds in a centerfire rifle.
Turns out the Garand has an exemption and is allowed 8.
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Post by jmdavis on 5/31/2019, 1:52 pm

Almost any bolt action can be shot as a Match Rifle for CMP and NRA. If you aren't vying for EIC points (Which require an AR variant, M1, or M1a/M14), a detachable magazine rifle or a rifle with stripper clip guides could be the ticket. 

On the pistol side, for NRA 2700's the guns have to be 22, CF (.32-45), and a 45. Your other options are to shoot 22 only, or 22 and Centerfire and not shoot the 45 match.
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Post by WesG on 5/31/2019, 4:29 pm

Loading 5 and 5 is now legal for Service Rifle.

How about buying an upper, and crossing your fingers re borrowing a lower?

Another option, perhaps, is a FAB-10 fixed magazine lower. They disappeared, AFAIK, once the Bullet Button came on the market. So auction may be the only bet. They came in 2 versions. The first had a hole for a modified stripper clip guide, and no bolt stop. The later version had the bolt stop, so it was usable for slow fire.

At least here in CA, pre Bullet Button, the juniors were allowed to load 10 rds and remove the rifle from their shoulder after the first 2 shots. I don't think they used that at Perry, just swapped in a mag release system once they crossed the border.

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Post by john bickar on 5/31/2019, 11:07 pm

WesG wrote:Loading 5 and 5 is now legal for Service Rifle.

How about buying an upper, and crossing your fingers re borrowing a lower?

Another option, perhaps, is a FAB-10 fixed magazine lower. They disappeared, AFAIK, once the Bullet Button came on the market. So auction may be the only bet. They came in 2 versions. The first had a hole for a modified stripper clip guide, and no bolt stop. The later version had the bolt stop, so it was usable for slow fire.

At least here in CA, pre Bullet Button, the juniors were allowed to load 10 rds and remove the rifle from their shoulder after the first 2 shots. I don't think they used that at Perry, just swapped in a mag release system once they crossed the border.

Waitaminnit...is this the "Wes G" that I know?

You know your friends will disown you if they catch you hanging out with pistol shooters, don't you?

(I didn't know about the "5 and 5" in service rifle. The things you learn on the Interwebs...)
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Post by WesG on 6/2/2019, 3:37 pm

I can't imagine anyone would publicly admit to knowing *that* guy ...

And at least pistol shooters are civilized enough to not lay down in the dirt.

On a serious note, although I still load 2 and 8, I'd advise any new HP shooter to go 5 & 5. The reason being, loading the 8 rd mag first is a DQ offense if you pull the trigger. Shooting 2, and swapping it out, results in a hot reload, also a DQ.

I once put the 8 rd mag in, fired 2 shots, and noticed something felt funny (bolt not locking back). Dropped the mag and noticed the next mag felt light. Looking down, I saw the one I'd dropped still had rds in it. So I racked the live rd out, loaded, fired the 2, and then went back to the other mag. And somehow got the ejected rd back in the gun and fired it before time ran out.

Cool? Nope, still technically a DQ. But neither I nor my score keeper knew any better ;-)

I might be at the shop next week, mounting a scope on a rifle. Which window across the street should I use to bore sight it?


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Post by Jack H on 6/2/2019, 3:49 pm

Ah.  The human factor. 
I one time saw a Triple D HM call an alibi real early in a string.  No doubt thinking he had a dud.  No.  He had an empty mag.
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Post by john bickar on 6/2/2019, 6:38 pm

WesG wrote:I might be at the shop next week, mounting a scope on a rifle. Which window across the street should I use to bore sight it?

LOL. 4th floor, that's all I'll say.
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