Seating die for 148g HBWC

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Seating die for 148g HBWC Empty Seating die for 148g HBWC

Post by djw1cav on 7/3/2019, 11:49 am

My inventory of 148g HBWC ammunition for my Model 52 is getting low and it is time for me to load another batch.  I have been loading this round over two years and it always seems to be a struggle.  The last time I loaded I had issues with my seating die(s).  I expect the difficulty is mostly my fault because I am loading two different bullets, with two different diameters.  I ended up with two sets of dies for the 148g HBWC and one more set for my regular 38 special ammo.

My seating problems are:   
1.  The OAL varies by .010" when I load full progressive versus single round on my Hornady LNL. 
2.  The expanded case is too large to fit in a standard 38 special seating die, so I use a 38 auto seating die which is .005" larger.  The 38 auto die has enough room for the expanded cases without scraping the inside of the seating die.  If I expand less I get lead shaving. 

(I use custom inserts similar to NOE inserts to expand the cases)
(I crimp with a Redding profile crimp die)   

Am I doing something wrong?

I am thinking about buying a Redding competition seating die to help with these issues.  Does anyone else run this die? 

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Seating die for 148g HBWC Empty Re: Seating die for 148g HBWC

Post by Dcforman on 7/3/2019, 12:13 pm

One thing I did was create a "custom" seating insert using JB Weld. Mixed up a little, put it on the end of the round nose insert, then pressed a 148 bullet (covered in in a little oil) on it. Scraped most of the excess off, then let it cure. Once cured, I sanded the sides down flush. Works great.

Dave

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Seating die for 148g HBWC Empty Re: Seating die for 148g HBWC

Post by djw1cav on 7/3/2019, 1:06 pm

Dcforman wrote:One thing I did was create a "custom" seating insert using JB Weld. Mixed up a little, put it on the end of the round nose insert, then pressed a 148 bullet (covered in in a little oil) on it. Scraped most of the excess off, then let it cure. Once cured, I sanded the sides down flush. Works great.

Dave
Interesting.  I expect your custom insert would force the bullet to be better aliened with the insert than standard insert would.
Thanks,
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Post by Dcforman on 7/3/2019, 4:07 pm

Seems to align well. And since the insert matches the nose profile of the bullet, seating depth is consistent. I'll have to measure some tomorrow.

Dave

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Seating die for 148g HBWC Empty Re: Seating die for 148g HBWC

Post by Sa-tevp on 7/4/2019, 10:51 am

For my WC dies a friend turned down the seating insert in a lathe so the OD of the insert was smaller than the ID of the case. This was so the seating insert wouldn't hit the rim of the case and crinkle the brass.

I also use 38 Auto sizing dies and a custom expander since I like Magnus swaged bullets. My goals are WC rounds that work in a S&W M52 and a Colt cylinder (tighter than S&W cylinder) and that don't cause much leading.

Stephen
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Seating die for 148g HBWC Empty Re: Seating die for 148g HBWC

Post by Wobbley on 7/4/2019, 11:38 am

One trick...(actually several)

Drill and tap a #6 hole in the center of the seating stem. Put release agent on the seating stem and put a degreased screw in the tapped hole. Add a dollop of JB Weld, then put a bullet with release agent in the dollop. Wrap with scotch tape to maintain alignment and to keep the diameter so it fits in the die. Let cure.

The screw will allow you to remove and replace the epoxy mix if your bullet profiles change.

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Seating die for 148g HBWC Empty Re: Seating die for 148g HBWC

Post by djw1cav on 7/4/2019, 12:08 pm

Sa-tevp wrote:For my WC dies a friend turned down the seating insert in a lathe so the OD of the insert was smaller than the ID of the case. This was so the seating insert wouldn't hit the rim of the case and crinkle the brass.

I also use 38 Auto sizing dies and a custom expander since I like Magnus swaged bullets. My goals are WC rounds that work in a S&W M52 and a Colt cylinder (tighter than S&W cylinder) and that don't cause much leading.

Stephen
Stephen,
I try to seat my wad-cutters flush, but with .010" seating variation, I think it would be prudent for me to turn down my seating stem too. 

I use a 38 Auto sizing die on the RP cases I use for Remington bullets.  I also tried using the 38 Auto sizing die on the Starline cases I use with Zero bullets.  It was a disaster.  Not enough case tension on 3/4 of the 100 rounds I made.  I ended up pulling bullets from 70 cases.  Now I use a 38 special sizing die for Starline cases with Zero bullets. 

I have heard of Magnus bullets but not tried them.  What is their OD?  How do they compare to Zero and Remington bullets?
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Seating die for 148g HBWC Empty Re: Seating die for 148g HBWC

Post by Sa-tevp on 7/4/2019, 12:27 pm

I have using Winchester brass but plan on Starline in the future so I will have to watch dimensions when I switch.

The Magnus are 0.357 - 0.358". I tumble lube them in 45-45-10 to reduce leading. No RR testing but at 25 yards they group like my 22 pistols.

I have never tried Remington HBWC as I never found them in stock when I was looking. My only experience with Zero is shooting through a case of new 148 HBWC which shot well (6X in TF once) but leaded a lot.
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Seating die for 148g HBWC Empty Re: Seating die for 148g HBWC

Post by djw1cav on 7/4/2019, 1:32 pm

I have never tried Remington HBWC as I never found them in stock when I was looking. My only experience with Zero is shooting through a case of new 148 HBWC which shot well (6X in TF once) but leaded a lot.


  I heard on this forum that the Remington HBWC shot the best so I purchased 4000 from Midway.  I found that they did shoot slightly better than my Zeros (both shot from a bench rest).  But... Considering my skill level, they were not worth the effort I put into cleaning the nasty lubricant from 2000 of them, and re-lubing with "white alox" and developing the load.  When my first 2000 runs out I will have to make a decision if I want to keep them or not. 

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Post by Wobbley on 7/4/2019, 3:40 pm

I measured a bunch of different 38 WC bullets and posted it here.

https://www.bullseyeforum.net/t11479-products-part-of-photoescape-website-is-now-active#bottom
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Seating die for 148g HBWC Empty Re: Seating die for 148g HBWC

Post by djw1cav on 7/4/2019, 6:58 pm

Wobbley wrote:I measured a bunch of different 38 WC bullets and posted it here.

https://www.bullseyeforum.net/t11479-products-part-of-photoescape-website-is-now-active#bottom
Wobbley,
Thanks, I had NO idea that there were so many 38 special HBWC's.  When my supply of Zeros runs out I think I will try the Magnus.
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Post by Sa-tevp on 7/4/2019, 7:33 pm

Wobbley wrote:I measured a bunch of different 38 WC bullets and posted it here.

https://www.bullseyeforum.net/t11479-products-part-of-photoescape-website-is-now-active#bottom

Nuts. I went to my workbench and measured some of my Magnus 514 and sure enough I kept getting 0.360 - 0.361". These have all been tumble lubed though. I didn't have any NIB left to measure.

I also found out I need to order more as I have about 500 left in the loading production line...
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Seating die for 148g HBWC Empty Re: Seating die for 148g HBWC

Post by djw1cav on 7/4/2019, 8:11 pm

Sa-tevp wrote:
Wobbley wrote:I measured a bunch of different 38 WC bullets and posted it here.

https://www.bullseyeforum.net/t11479-products-part-of-photoescape-website-is-now-active#bottom

Nuts. I went to my workbench and measured some of my Magnus 514 and sure enough I kept getting 0.360 - 0.361". These have all been tumble lubed though. I didn't have any NIB left to measure.

I also found out I need to order more as I have about 500 left in the loading production line...
Stephen,
Thanks for the information on Magnus bullets.  Its interesting that both you and Wobbley measure .360-.361" for the Magnus 514 while the Magnus website says that is .357".  If you think of it, when you recieve your next shipment of Magnus bullets please measure a couple and post it here.  I am very interested in the Magnus bullets especially if they measure in .360"-361". 
Thanks,
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Post by james r chapman on 7/4/2019, 9:08 pm

I measure Magnus degreased with mitutoyo micrometers at .357 consistently.
But, they have always obturated and shot well.
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Seating die for 148g HBWC Empty Re: Seating die for 148g HBWC

Post by zanemoseley on 7/10/2019, 8:00 pm

So is there no seating stem for a Dillon that you can buy off the shelf that works well with the 148 HBWC? I've got a case of old star 148's and 1000 of the Magnus/Zero 148.

I'm gearing up to load for a 1911/38 Jon is finishing. I bought a box of 148 grain Federal Gold Medal match ammo to emulate. The bullets in those seem maybe about .010" deep past flush. I could see seating with the stock Dillon stem but if you try to go past flush or even flush it seems as if you could easily damage the mouth of the case by crushing it.


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Post by zanemoseley on 7/10/2019, 8:28 pm

Do you guys think a 3d printed stem insert would hold up? That stuff is pretty dense and it doesn't take a lot of force to seat. Andrew couple probably make them pretty cheap.

Ideally I would have a stem the same diameter as stock but with the noses filled in. I would like one side totally flat and the other side to have a shoulder turned in so you could seat into the brass without actually touching the brass.

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Seating die for 148g HBWC Empty Re: Seating die for 148g HBWC

Post by djw1cav on 7/10/2019, 8:43 pm

zanemoseley wrote:Do you guys think a 3d printed stem insert would hold up? That stuff is pretty dense and it doesn't take a lot of force to seat. Andrew couple probably make them pretty cheap.

Ideally I would have a stem the same diameter as stock but with the noses filled in. I would like one side totally flat and the other side to have a shoulder turned in so you could seat into the brass without actually touching the brass.
I expect if the shape of the bullet was molded into the stem it would hold up pretty well, but not like steel.

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Seating die for 148g HBWC Empty Re: Seating die for 148g HBWC

Post by Sa-tevp on 7/10/2019, 9:29 pm

zanemoseley wrote:So is there no seating stem for a Dillon that you can buy off the shelf that works well with the 148 HBWC? I've got a case of old star 148's and 1000 of the Magnus/Zero 148.

I'm gearing up to load for a 1911/38 Jon is finishing. I bought a box of 148 grain Federal Gold Medal match ammo to emulate. The bullets in those seem maybe about .010" deep past flush. I could see seating with the stock Dillon stem but if you try to go past flush or even flush it seems as if you could easily damage the mouth of the case by crushing it.


I load HBWC on a Dillon SDB. A friend turned down the Dillon seating insert for me on his lathe so it would be smaller than the case ID. It flattens the center dome of the HBWC bullet slightly but I don't worry about it. I figure you're sending a miniature beer keg down range anyways aerodynamically.

I guess if it was a matter I could have the center turned....
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Seating die for 148g HBWC Empty Re: Seating die for 148g HBWC

Post by djw1cav on 7/11/2019, 6:55 am

Zanemoseley,

I'm gearing up to load for a 1911/38 Jon is finishing. I bought a box of 148 grain Federal Gold Medal match ammo to emulate. The bullets in those seem maybe about .010" deep past flush. I could see seating with the stock Dillon stem but if you try to go past flush or even flush it seems as if you could easily damage the mouth of the case by crushing it.

There is a lot of information on this forum about loading the 148g HBWC.  Most people seat flush to slightly protruding.  It depends on how your load feeds in your gun.  I have an older box of "Winchester Super-Match" and they are loaded flush with a roll crimp. 
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Post by BE Mike on 7/11/2019, 7:26 am

A buddy of mine took a factory seating stem and machined it flat. Works for me.
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