Flyers going 1-2 O’clock

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Post by Spurls on 7/10/2019, 10:53 pm

I typically can call most shots, but I’ve been getting the occasional flier in the 8 ring 1-2 O’clock position during sustained fire and could not identify which shot left the black. I’m a right handed shooter and am struggling to identify what could be my issue. Thoughts?

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Post by Jon Eulette on 7/10/2019, 11:02 pm

Weak thumb on your grip. Pistol will twist high and right.
Making contact onbgrip with thumb will add more thumb heel pressure stopping those fliers.
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Post by adminbot1911 on 7/11/2019, 7:01 am

Jon Eulette wrote:Weak thumb on your grip. Pistol will twist high and right.
Making contact onbgrip with thumb will add more thumb heel pressure stopping those fliers.
Jon
Do you find thumb contact on the safety helps or hurts this condition?
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Post by mikemyers on 7/11/2019, 7:34 am

Jon Eulette wrote:Weak thumb on your grip. Pistol will twist high and right.......Making contact on grip with thumb will add more thumb heel pressure stopping those fliers.
Thanks Jon, you just answered a question I never got around to asking - as when most of the shots go where I'm aiming, and one or two are high right.  I know I'm deliberately not putting any pressure with my thumb.  I guess that's a hold-over from two-hand shooting.  Now that you explained it, it all makes sense.  Thanks!
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Post by Jon Eulette on 7/11/2019, 8:30 am

adminbot1911 wrote:
Jon Eulette wrote:Weak thumb on your grip. Pistol will twist high and right.
Making contact onbgrip with thumb will add more thumb heel pressure stopping those fliers.
Jon
Do you find thumb contact on the safety helps or hurts this condition?
For me thats not a natural position for the thumb. I think it is putting more pressure on the thumb and less on the heel. The heel is what makes the grip but requires proper thumb position to achieve it. So more consistent heel pressure is what were looking for. When I was younger I could get away with less thumb because I was stronger. Now being older and not as strong and having arthritis I discovered the I needed to have much more thumb pressure to get rid of the 1-2 o'clock fliers (mostly at 50yds.). I haven't been shooting much this year; mostly gunsmithing. I shot the other day and my first 10 shots at 50 I was not grouping at all. I increased my grip pressure and a little more aggressive trigger squeeze and was grouping them in the 10 very nice. Grip is really important!
Jon
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Post by adminbot1911 on 7/11/2019, 12:54 pm

Jon Eulette wrote:
adminbot1911 wrote:
Jon Eulette wrote:Weak thumb on your grip. Pistol will twist high and right.
Making contact on grip with thumb will add more thumb heel pressure stopping those fliers.
Jon
Do you find thumb contact on the safety helps or hurts this condition?
For me thats not a natural position for the thumb. I think it is putting more pressure on the thumb and less on the heel. The heel is what makes the grip but requires proper thumb position to achieve it. So more consistent heel pressure is what were looking for. When I was younger I could get away with less thumb because I was stronger. Now being older and not as strong and having arthritis I discovered the I needed to have much more thumb pressure to get rid of the 1-2 o'clock fliers (mostly at 50yds.). I haven't been shooting much this year; mostly gunsmithing. I shot the other day and my first 10 shots at 50 I was not grouping at all. I increased my grip pressure and a little more aggressive trigger squeeze and was grouping them in the 10 very nice. Grip is really important!
Jon
Fantastic breakdown, thank you. 

Heel related question, and not to hijack the OP thread but it may be related, how do you feel about the arched MSH, because it seems to increase palm heel pressure while decreasing thumb heel pressure
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Post by Spurls on 7/11/2019, 9:22 pm

Thanks Jon. I’ll be focusing on that here on out, but am curious too about flat vs arched MSH.

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Post by Jon Eulette on 7/12/2019, 1:54 pm

MSH...user preference. I've shot both equally well but prefer flat. Hand size dictates. Smaller hands benefit from flat in my opinion. I'm a believer in the smaller the gripping circumference the better the grip. Hand checkering a 1911 will reduce circumference more than most precheckered frames.
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Post by mikemyers on 7/14/2019, 12:21 pm

Jon Eulette wrote:Weak thumb on your grip. Pistol will twist high and right.
Making contact onbgrip with thumb will add more thumb heel pressure stopping those fliers.
Jon
Jon, trying to understand, wouldn't the thumb just be pushing the gun to the side?  How does the thumb influence the up/down orientation of the gun?  Is the thumb to be pressing "down" on part of the gun?
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Post by Jon Eulette on 7/14/2019, 3:31 pm

Mike on a 1911 with slab grips with no thumb rest the thumb actually does not have much influence on the grip. The placement of the thumb is mostly to get more pressure from the heel of the thumb. When a 1911 recoils the grip will try and twist to the area of least resistance which is the thumb heal. So by adding more thumb pressure you are getting more heel pressure which improves your grip. Another way you can think about it is that with a weak grip the pistol will recoil up and to the right for a right-handed shooter which puts the shots at 1 to 2 o clock.
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Post by mikemyers on 7/14/2019, 4:12 pm

OK, understood.

When I grip my gun the way Brian Zins did in his video, the "heel of my thumb" is offset towards the right, because the gun is offset so it faces my face, not my arm.  The grip safety is in that area as well.  To do as you suggest, I think I need to use the heel of my thumb and most of my fingers as a "vice", to firmly grip the gun between them.  

I already know this works, as I no longer get flyers heading off to Mars or something, high and right.

I mis-understood what you meant.  All sorted out now.
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Post by Jack H on 7/14/2019, 4:37 pm

That's thumb "heel" pressure.  I call it the thumb "ham".  Straight forward into the backstrap.  The thumb itself, and finger tips in front can be totally off the grip to avoid choking the grip
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Post by Jon Eulette on 7/14/2019, 5:51 pm

Jack H wrote:That's thumb "heel" pressure.  I call it the thumb "ham".  Straight forward into the backstrap.  The thumb itself, and finger tips in front can be totally off the grip to avoid choking the grip
Jack,
I used to shoot like that when I was younger before arthritis set in. Can't do it anymore with good results.
Jon
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Post by john bickar on 7/14/2019, 6:54 pm

Focus on what you're doing when you're shooting 10s and Xs.

Do that more often.
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Post by David R Today at 5:51 am

Thank you, I read this and now increased Thumb pressure. I used to not even touch my pistol with my thumb.. Now the dot is right there when I pick up the gun. Truly helped me.

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