Nelson Conversion Kit

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Post by mikemyers on 7/13/2019, 8:35 pm

First topic message reminder :

Nelson Conversion Kit - Page 5 Img_8610
(Photo updated July 23, 2019 with Baer lower)


After a lot of thought and browsing, I ordered a Nelson Conversion Kit several months ago, not expecting it to arrive until September, but it showed up several weeks ago.  I left it sitting in the box until I had some free time.

I installed it this afternoon on my Salyer Caspian, after watching a few videos of how these kits work.  Everything went so smoothly, I was amazed.  It's now on the gun, but I will wait until Monday to call the people at Nelson, and ask a few questions.

Anyone here have any advice or suggestions to get the most out of these kits?

One of the videos showed a fellow installing a Marvel conversion, and then he squeezed out what looks like Wilson grease all over the kit - it reminded me of dispensing ketchup onto a hamburger.  I'm sure that is wrong, but that leads to a question - is there a guide I haven't found yet that recommends what to do regarding lubrication?

Next, since it's a 22, I assume dry-firing is out unless I find some dummy rounds so the gun won't be damaged.  Is this correct?

Is CCI Standard Velocity ammo best for it?

I bought it with a rail, and I think a light-weight sight would be best for me, but my Aimpoint Micro has a Kodiak mount that won't fit onto the rail.  I think I'll buy the standard Aimpoint mount, which should work fine.  In the meantime, I mounted my Matchdot II (which I bought through this forum). Any recommendations for which sights work best?  I found a discussion about using it with an Aimpoint 9000sc.  I could put that on as well.  Is that overkill?

Not sure what I was expecting, but the Nelson Conversion Kit is just plain beautiful.  It looks well made, it seems to be easy to use, and it was effortless to install.  It's everything I expected, and a lot more.  I was on the phone for well over an hour discussing the kit with the people at Nelson before I bought it, and it seems to me it was worth the long wait.  I had looked at the other sources of conversion kits, and I kept coming back to the Nelson.  I guess my "test" of it, will be how it shoots for me compared to my Model 41.  One nice thing is it "feels" the same as the 45 Springfield I'm now using.  My hands go to the same positions, and the weight feels very similar, maybe a little heavier probably due to the sight (the 45 has an Ultradot L/T which feels like it weighs nothing...)

My next match is in two weeks.  I was planning on using my Model 41, but it had so many "issues" I was thinking of using a revolver.  I think I solved the issues, but if I get used to the Nelson, that's another option.


Last edited by mikemyers on 7/23/2019, 3:54 pm; edited 4 times in total
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Post by dronning on 7/24/2019, 3:11 pm

You can try one other thing to see if an 8lb spring would fix it.  At the range put 1 round in a magazine drop the slide and fire it.  Does the slide lock back? If not, that tells you the recoil spring is too strong for your gun because the slide isn't going back far enough to lock.
- Dave
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Post by jglenn21 on 7/24/2019, 3:14 pm

simple question. if you pulled the slide back on the second round would it then feed ..no dropping the mag or anything else. If so then you are short stroking.. recoil spring and mainspring need attention or you have something dragging.
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Post by mikemyers on 7/24/2019, 4:21 pm

dronning wrote:You can try one other thing to see if an 8lb spring would fix it.  At the range put 1 round in a magazine drop the slide and fire it.  Does the slide lock back? If not, that tells you the recoil spring is too strong for your gun because the slide isn't going back far enough to lock.
- Dave
Dave, only one time today the slide didn't lock all the way back after the last round.  Every other time it did.  

Just got off the phone with Larry Nelson, and he gave me the same advice as Dave Salyer - install the 8# spring.  
Otherwise the slide doesn't have enough energy to do everything it's supposed to do.
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Post by mikemyers on 7/24/2019, 4:26 pm

jglenn21 wrote:simple question. if you pulled the slide back on the second round would it then feed ..no dropping the mag or anything else. If so then you are short stroking.. recoil spring and mainspring need attention or you have something dragging.

Not sure - I was thinking of trying that, but didn't.  I always pulled the trigger, and maybe it would fire, and maybe it would go (click).  If it went (click) I removed the mag, and started all over again.  Larry tells me this happens to many people, and the 8# spring takes care of it.  

Mainspring is whatever Les Baer installs in the Premier II.  

Unless it rains tomorrow, I'll find out if the 8# spring fixed the issue.
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Post by mikemyers on 7/25/2019, 4:02 pm

jglenn21 wrote:simple question. if you pulled the slide back on the second round would it then feed ..no dropping the mag or anything else. If so then you are short stroking.. recoil spring and mainspring need attention or you have something dragging.

I put in the 8# spring; the Nelson worked better, but the "second round" was still left stuck in the magazine.  I did what you suggested, and yes, the round then fired normally.  

Using a lighter spring helped, but not enough.  Larry now feels that my Baer main spring is much heavier than what's used for Bullseye.  I don't want to start changing around the Baer too much, so I'm back to wanting to install the Nelson on my Salyer Caspian.  So I need to put the Caspian back together.

In the meantime, I will put some grease on the rod that goes through the spring, put some new oil on the slide, and a little grease on the ejector.  



Also, my two new GSG steel magazines arrived.  I had a long talk with Larry about them - they have a defect that will eventually damage the Nelson.  They look perfect on the box, but the actual magazine is not right.  Below. is a photo to illustrate.  If you look at the top, the "slider" that pushes the rounds upward doesn't go all the way up.  The reason is that there is a pin which you can see down lower, which you push down on with your fingers to lower the internals so you can load more rounds.  That pin rides in a slot in the metal magazine.  Unfortunately, the top of the slot is not high enough.

Larry had me disassemble the magazine so I could remove the pin, then re-assemble.  The magazine at the right moves fully upwards, because the hole for the pin can now go higher.  

The reason this is a problem, is that when you fire the last round, the slide needs to stay open, but the slide stop won't go all the way up into the notch in the slide.  Eventually this will damage the slide.  The fix is to take the magazine apart, and with a file, make that slot in the magazine a little longer.  


(Since my Nelson kit is not capturing rounds from the magazine properly, I was wondering if the metal magazine would solve that issue......)

Nelson Conversion Kit - Page 5 Img_4711
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Post by Jon Eulette on 7/25/2019, 4:11 pm

Changing Baer mainspring to 19# is not going to effect the pistol. Is could drop the trigger pull weight slightly which can be addressed later after getting your Nelson to function reliably. So I recommend putting in a 19# spring.
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Post by mikemyers on 7/25/2019, 6:35 pm

Jon, I just ordered it.  Thanks.

(Eventually I plan to keep the Nelson on my Caspian frame gun, once I get it back together.  I found the hammer you recommended.  I'll start a new thread about that next week.  Right now it's completely torn down.  First step is to put on the new Caspian trigger.  I'll then re-assemble it with all the other parts I already have, including that ugly trigger.  If that works OK, I'll move on to other things.  Thanks for all your help about SO MANY other things!)


I may or may not have made it clear enough, but if someone orders the GSG magazines, and they have the issue described above, they MAY eventually damage their Nelson slide.  As Larry put it, the slide stop stops the slide which is under a lot of pressure moving forward, and with the little engagement that comes from the GSG magazine, the slide will start to be damaged, and it will continue to get worse.  Every time the slide locks back, the slide will get hammered as shown below.  Anyone with a GSG magazine should check for this.

(The fix is to take the magazine apart, and elongate the slot for the pin as needed.)

TEST:
Insert GSG magazine.
Pull slide back manually, as if that was your last round that fired.
Release slide - it will try to slam forward, but will be stopped by the slide stop.

The photo below is what happens - the slide stop doesn't move up very far, because of the magazine problem:

Nelson Conversion Kit - Page 5 Img_2911


Same test, but with the pin in the magazine removed:

Nelson Conversion Kit - Page 5 Img_3611

(I want to test this magazine, before I start filing on it....   for now, I just removed the pin, so the magazine parts can move up all the way as intended.)
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Post by bob7398 on 7/25/2019, 8:12 pm

Mike,
Have you thought about trying the Baer mag catch in your Caspian 
Frame to see how the mags feel going in? It might help!

Bob

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Post by mikemyers on 7/25/2019, 8:27 pm

Bob, the Caspian gun is completely stripped down.  No way to test anything with it yet.  Thanks for the suggestion, but I hope to re-assemble the Caspian exactly as it was before, but with the new trigger installed.  Everything else will be the same - change one thing at a time.  (I'm still trying to understand exactly how to install a new trigger - Larry told me what to do, and I think I trust his way more than the YouTube videos I've seen so far.). Once the Caspian is assembled, I can try your suggestion, using the Baer mag catch.  

I found this thread:
https://www.bullseyeforum.net/t7854-nelson-conversion-on-a-les-baer
From what Tim:H11 wrote, I'm on the right path - lighter recoil spring, and lighter mainspring.  If Larry, Jon, and Tim:H11 all agree, that's my plan.

From what I learned from Larry, the stock magazines are fine, and so are the GSG once I make the change.

Larry told me how he lubricates the Nelson kit - did all that an hour ago, and yes, it does feel smoother.  I mostly used Wilson grease, and thin oil where needed.
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Post by mikemyers on 7/25/2019, 10:17 pm

Just thinking out loud, if the CCI SV rounds don't have enough energy to work the Baer, why shouldn't I get some 22 ammo with a bit more power?
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Post by dapduh2 on 7/25/2019, 10:38 pm

Because CCI SV is cheap, accurate for the price, and reliable in most pistols. And easy to find in a pinch at any local Walmart. Most will say you don’t need to worry about more expensive .22 ammo until you reach a certain point for it to do enough good to justify, others will tell you the high scores they’ve gotten with CCI SV. I like to bench test a few brands at 50yds off sandbags. 

For what’s its worth, in my marvel the CCI SV shot so poorly that I thought it had to be me... so I sent 10 more rounds being extra careful and taking my time. It was just as bad. Barely held 10 ring. Other 4-5 types of ammo were x ring or better (wolf, Aguila, sk, eley, etc). Maybe the lack of performance there justifies a few extra pennies for better ammo. But with my new Nelson, honestly it shoots great and only a fraction larger groups than the others. Groups in the Nelson are much smaller on average and the CCI SV is tighter than x ring of sandbags. Tried the marvel another time after... 10 ring barely again lol. So if it performs and is cheap, I’d stick with CCI SV for now.
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Post by dronning on 7/26/2019, 9:21 am

mikemyers wrote:Just thinking out loud, if the CCI SV rounds don't have enough energy to work the Baer, why shouldn't I get some 22 ammo with a bit more power?
I know of at least 1 person that cracked a frame in their Marvel when shooting Mini Mags.  Don't know if it was just a coincidence.  Just like my 45 I want to shoot the softest round I can that is accurate.

By the way my Nelson is on a Premier II frame and I have had zero issues, not one alibi with >8,000 rounds through it.  I had already put in a 19lb Mainspring in the Premier II before I mounted the Nelson and I am using the stock 9lb recoil spring of the Nelson, but I wouldn't hesitate to put in an 8lb recoil spring if I needed to.

Mag catch, I have helped 2 friends eliminate issues with mag catches.  1 was too high and the other too low, yes there can be that much variation between frames.

- Dave
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Post by lablover on 7/26/2019, 10:08 am

Gsg mags work great in my non lock back Marvel...soooooo glad I got the non lock back. Put 19 lb mainspring in it and functions without a flaw.
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Post by mikemyers on 7/26/2019, 10:10 am

Dave, if I remember right, the Baer comes with a 23 pound mainspring.  Did you ever try that spring?  My new 19# spring should be here early next week.

How did you compensate for the mag catch being too high or too low?  

Are you using CCI SV?  
(I have a brick of Elay target ammo arriving tomorrow - curious if that will do better than my CCI.)
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Post by mikemyers on 7/26/2019, 10:16 am

lablover wrote:Gsg mags work great in my non lock back Marvel...soooooo glad I got the non lock back. Put 19 lb mainspring in it and functions without a flaw.
Curious, if you try to lock back the slide, does it lock properly, or as shown in the photo I posted?
If it's like in the photo, the next round isn't being fully raised, with the rear of the round not going all the way up.
Obviously it works for you, but looking at the comparison photos, that slot is too short.

For you, no big deal.  Larry tells me that the GSG will work fine as-is, BUT FOR the damage being done during lock back for the last round.  


Sometime I need to ask why people prefer to have, or not have, the lock-back feature.  I know the reasons to have it, but I don't know why people would prefer not to have it.
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Post by lablover on 7/26/2019, 10:21 am

If I want to lock back the slide I have to raise the slide stop manually.  My gsg mags are also the non lock back version..I honestly didn’t know there was a difference until Marvel told me so.  When I get home I’ll take a look but I do know I have that pin you use to help load the Ammo.
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Post by lablover on 7/26/2019, 10:28 am

Mike, if it helps you any I was having the exact same issue as you with the plastic mags that came with the Marvel..I promptly went back and traded back all the plastic mags and paid the extra for the metal gsg mags..headed right back to the practice range minutes later and problem never happened again.

I had it out yesterday and ran over 100 rounds thru it in rapid fire drills..never failed once.  Again, just FYI.  I think the 19 lb mainspring will also help you.  I bought a package of 5 just to have them.
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Post by mikemyers on 7/26/2019, 10:33 am

lablover wrote:Mike, if it helps you any I was having the exact same issue as you with the plastic mags that came with the Marvel..I promptly went back and traded back all the plastic mags and paid the extra for the metal gsg mags..headed right back to the practice range minutes later and problem never happened again.

I had it out yesterday and ran over 100 rounds thru it in rapid fire drills..never failed once.  Again, just FYI.  I think the 19 lb mainspring will also help you.  I bought a package of 5 just to have them.
Thank you - yes, it helps me a lot.  I'll find out tomorrow if it cured my problem, but I won't have the 19# spring for several days.  

There's a match at my club this Sunday.  If it works, I'll shoot the Nelson.  If not, and if IT works, I'll shoot the Model 41.  If I don't trust anything to work, I'll shoot my S&W Model 17.
I suspect my CCI SV has too much wax on it, as the 41 is only reliable if I remove some of the wax.  I'll have some Elay ammo arriving today or tomorrow - will also try that.

I'm not going to return the Nelson mags, even if the steel ones work better now.  Who knows, on a different base, maybe it will be the other way 'round.
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Post by Wobbley on 7/26/2019, 10:37 am

Try a drop of oil on the top round in your 41. The oil softens the wax without removing it. I know it’s a pain in the butt...
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Post by lablover on 7/26/2019, 10:45 am

mikemyers wrote:
lablover wrote:Mike, if it helps you any I was having the exact same issue as you with the plastic mags that came with the Marvel..I promptly went back and traded back all the plastic mags and paid the extra for the metal gsg mags..headed right back to the practice range minutes later and problem never happened again.

I had it out yesterday and ran over 100 rounds thru it in rapid fire drills..never failed once.  Again, just FYI.  I think the 19 lb mainspring will also help you.  I bought a package of 5 just to have them.
Thank you - yes, it helps me a lot.  I'll find out tomorrow if it cured my problem, but I won't have the 19# spring for several days.  

There's a match at my club this Sunday.  If it works, I'll shoot the Nelson.  If not, and if IT works, I'll shoot the Model 41.  If I don't trust anything to work, I'll shoot my S&W Model 17.
I suspect my CCI SV has too much wax on it, as the 41 is only reliable if I remove some of the wax.  I'll have some Elay ammo arriving today or tomorrow - will also try that.

I'm not going to return the Nelson mags, even if the steel ones work better now.  Who knows, on a different base, maybe it will be the other way 'round.
Try the gsg mags before you even get the springs..then try the gsg with the new spring.  I’ve used the eley target and my Marvel loves it..it also likes the cci and honestly at my skill level whatever accuracy loss it might have I don’t notice  it......yet. Price difference is huge.  And the wax is not an issue with mine either.  

Btw, you have OCD don’t you..I do and I can see it in your posts....lol
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Post by radjag on 7/26/2019, 11:02 am

Mike,

If you are really convinced about wax being the problem, why not try some copper plated 22's.

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Post by mikemyers on 7/26/2019, 2:38 pm

Wobbley wrote:Try a drop of oil on the top round in your 41.  The oil softens the wax without removing it.  I know it’s a pain in the butt...
I tried that with my 41, and it did help.  This was several months ago, when the issue was getting the rounds INTO the chamber.  That problem went away, but when I took the gun apart to clean it, everything was soaked with oil.  For my present issues, I don't think it would matter, as the problem now is getting the rounds OUT OF the magazine, not INTO the chamber.  

Regarding wax, when it's over 90 degrees outside, the wax on my CCI SD rounds feels so soft I can wipe it off with a piece of paper towel, which I've actually done.  Spread out 5 or 10 rounds on a paper towel or towel, and rub them over it for a few seconds.
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Post by mikemyers on 7/26/2019, 2:42 pm

radjag wrote:Mike,

If you are really convinced about wax being the problem, why not try some copper plated 22's.
When I can repeatedly insert five waxed or cleaned rounds into the magazine, and the waxed rounds don't transfer to the gun, but the cleaned ones do, it makes me believe that wax is part of my issue.  

.....and I strongly believe that it shouldn't make any difference.  What's happening doesn't sound logical.

I could solve all my problems by loading only one round, and having five magazines.....    :-/
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Post by mikemyers on 7/26/2019, 2:57 pm

lablover wrote:Try the gsg mags before you even get the springs..then try the gsg with the new spring.  I’ve used the eley target and my Marvel loves it..it also likes the cci and honestly at my skill level whatever accuracy loss it might have I don’t notice  it......yet. Price difference is huge.  And the wax is not an issue with mine either.  

Btw, you have OCD don’t you..I do and I can see it in your posts....lol
The earliest I can try the GSG magazines is late tomorrow morning.  If they work, I'll file the opening a little higher, and put the pin back in.  

The 19# spring should get here in a few days; will try that with both GSG and Nelson magazines.  By then I'll also have the Elay target ammo, so will try both that, and the CCI.




==========================================

OCD....    One requirement for good Bullseye Shooting is a Shot Process.   Having a Shot Process to me is the very definition of OCD.   Bullseye shooting requires OCD.

==========================================

........which is why I have guns I shoot just for the fun of shooting.  
To me, Bullseye guns are "work".
To me, shooting revolvers is far more "fun" than "work".  

Maybe that's why I enjoy Black Powder so much - to me, it's similar to painting.

==========================================


With any luck, I expect my new Nelson will eventually become a wonderful gun to just go out and enjoy shooting, simply for the enjoyment of shooting, no OCD required.   :-)
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Post by mikemyers on 7/27/2019, 4:58 pm

I thought this was going to be much more difficult.  The Caspian is re-assembled with the new trigger (took me over three hours with file, sandpaper, and Dykem to fit).  It seems to work OK, trigger feels good, and grip safety does what it should.

The Nelson dropped right in, and seems fine.  I'll take the gun to the match tomorrow, with both the CCI and Eley "target ammo", and both steel and Nelson magazines.    The Caspian should already have the proper strength mainspring for Bullseye, so I'm hopeful that it will work properly.


Jim, sorry - I chickened out on the hammer.  I plan on letting the gunsmith install it, as I'm not sure I can do it safely, especially after reading this information on a safety check:
https://www.shootingillustrated.com/articles/2016/6/1/1911-test-time-safety-checks-101/

The new SIG grips fit my hands much better than my other grips - they are wider, and very comfortable.


Newest photo:
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