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Comparison, CCI SV vs. Eley "target".

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Comparison, CCI SV vs. Eley "target". Empty Comparison, CCI SV vs. Eley "target".

Post by mikemyers 7/27/2019, 7:54 pm

If I say why I'm asking the following, that would probably influence the replies, so I'll make this generic.

For those of you who have shot both in handguns, how would you compare CCI SV ammo, (purchased usually at a rather low cost), with Elay "target" ammo (available through Civilian Marksmanship Program) ?

The two considerations would be "precision" and "reliability", especially in very hot climates.

Both are 40 grain, CCI is rated at 1070 fps and Eley is rated at 1090 fps.

Comparison, CCI SV vs. Eley "target". Img_6511
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Post by fc60 7/27/2019, 8:08 pm

Greetings,

I have used both with good results.

Neither is top tier ammunition and will vary in performance from lot to lot.

The Eley generally feeds well in most of the European pistols.

CCI usually groups well; but, sometimes they get a little too much wax lube on the bullet causing malfunctions.

Ideally, you would buy a box of each and test them for functioning and accuracy. Once proven, get on the phone and buy a whole case of the same lot number of the best ammo.

Cheers,

Dave
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Post by mikemyers 7/27/2019, 8:28 pm

Thank you Dave, you may have answered the reason why I posted here.  In hot 90+ degree weather here in Florida, I am pretty sure the CCI wax has been interfering with reliability - as in, if I wipe the wax off, the rounds feed better.  

I've never bought Eley before, but to do as you suggested, I got a brick of the Eley and will use a brick of my CCI to compare.  If the malfunctions vanish, I will switch to Eley, especially in summer.  They cost more, but if they mostly eliminate malfunctions, I think they will be worth it.

Thanks for the last thing you wrote - I hadn't considered that.  

Oh, and while I accept "neither is top tier ammunition", I'm hardly a "top tier shooter".   :-)
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Post by JayhawkNavy02 7/27/2019, 10:21 pm

IMO Eley’s lube will cause issues before CCI in extreme cases (heat). I was at FT Benning for Interservice Pistol in the summer when TENEX shooters were looking for CCI to keep pistols running. I think the CCI has a little more punch to help as well.

Eley Club and CCI SV has shot about the same in 3 pistols I've tested, about to do a 4th, but CCI SV is 1/2 the price.  Club has a consistent slight edge.  I may be wrong, and often am, but I think Club may be a little higher in the Eley pecking order than target.  Each pistol is different and with the bargain 22 the lot to lot difference can be significant as mentioned unlike Eley TENEX/Lapua X-ACT.  I have noticed club is slightly more consistent than CCI but my sample size is pretty small.


Last edited by JayhawkNavy02 on 7/28/2019, 4:00 pm; edited 3 times in total
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Post by jglenn21 7/28/2019, 8:41 am

As i understand it target and club come off the same line. Then a lot is tested for accuracy and the appropriate label goes on.  It is very interesting though to look up target and club lots on eley's online lot testing results.. very often a lot of target will perform better in their testing.  On my own testing of 4 lots of target and club it is still dependant on a specific firearm.


Last edited by jglenn21 on 7/28/2019, 12:20 pm; edited 1 time in total
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Post by Big_Red 7/28/2019, 11:15 am

I tried a new marvel out yesterday. I had tons of failures to fire  with the Eley Target and saw heavy strikes on the casing. However, cci standard ran just fine without any issues at all. I’m going to continue to see if it’s an issue with the ammo or a spring issue, but I’m leaning towards the ammo. Just my small Sample

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Post by orpheoet 7/28/2019, 3:42 pm

My experience with Eley Club and CCI SV is Club shot marginally more accurate out of my M41, never a reliability issue with either. Oddly my Pardini SP does not run with the Club that I have but never an issue with CCI.
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Post by mikemyers 7/28/2019, 5:36 pm

My experience today is that the CCI SV that I still have three bricks of doesn't work in my Nelson conversion.  The Eley Target functioned perfectly, and so did some Federal that a friend gave me. to try.

The federal felt like it has no wax.
The CCI feels like it has 'thick" wax, and
The Eley felt like it was soaked in some kind of lubricant.  

I'll need to bring my new rest to the range this week, and compare them for precision, but what good is precision if a round won't load and fire....

I think I need to call CCI and ask their advice - maybe it's defective....
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Post by james r chapman 7/28/2019, 6:24 pm

Interesting, my ultra slimy Geco sv cycle great in both my Nelson’s. You must be holding your mouth wrong
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Post by mikemyers 7/28/2019, 6:27 pm

Maybe, but this particular batch of CCI has problems both with the Nelson, and with my Model 41.....
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Post by orpheoet 7/28/2019, 6:30 pm

mikemyers wrote:Maybe, but this particular batch of CCI has problems both with the Nelson, and with my Model 41.....
Whats it doing in the 41? CCI SV is the default ammo for 41's!
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Post by mikemyers 7/28/2019, 7:07 pm

orpheoet wrote:Whats it doing in the 41? CCI SV is the default ammo for 41's!
What it was doing before, was getting into the chamber, and not wanting to be extracted.  Since then I've installed a new Volquartsen extractor, cleaned and refreshes everything, no extractor spring, no plunger, replaced the 6.5# stock recoil spring with a 6# from Wolff.....    and when it wasn't doing that stuff, its favorite position in my gun was a "stovepipe" emulation.  All problems went away when I cleaned off the coat of wax, and used the same ammo - and returned when I used my ammo just the way it came.

My opinion is that CCI SV is fine, but MY batch of CCI SV has issues.  

Today it was a little cooler, which seems to help.  

I'm going to ask the tech support people at CCI what to do.....      The Federal ammo today worked well, and the Eley ammo worked perfectly.  

I'm beginning to think that CCI SV ammo is fine, but my own batch of CCI SV has "issues" (maybe due to the heat??)
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Post by orpheoet 7/28/2019, 7:26 pm

mikemyers wrote:
orpheoet wrote:Whats it doing in the 41? CCI SV is the default ammo for 41's!
What it was doing before, was getting into the chamber, and not wanting to be extracted.  Since then I've installed a new Volquartsen extractor, cleaned and refreshes everything, no extractor spring, no plunger, replaced the 6.5# stock recoil spring with a 6# from Wolff.....    and when it wasn't doing that stuff, its favorite position in my gun was a "stovepipe" emulation.  All problems went away when I cleaned off the coat of wax, and used the same ammo - and returned when I used my ammo just the way it came.

My opinion is that CCI SV is fine, but MY batch of CCI SV has issues.  

Today it was a little cooler, which seems to help.  

I'm going to ask the tech support people at CCI what to do.....      The Federal ammo today worked well, and the Eley ammo worked perfectly.  

I'm beginning to think that CCI SV ammo is fine, but my own batch of CCI SV has "issues" (maybe due to the heat??)
6lb recoil spring is pretty light. I'm not a gunsmith by any means but maybe the slide is going to fast at this point. I use a 6.5. I think factory is 7.5
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Post by mikemyers 7/28/2019, 8:39 pm

I was told the standard recoil spring for the S&W Model 41 is 6.5 pounds.  I now have springs for 6, 6.5, and 7 pounds.  The spring in my gun has been there since the 1970's, and used to be pretty reliable.  With my new CCI SV ammo, it has issues, which seem to vanish if I wipe off the wax.  

I'll take the gun and all the springs to the range on Tuesday.  I'll also bring my CCI and Eley ammo - should probably buy a brick of Federal.  


People have been telling me that these guns barely have enough power to function correctly.  That's why Larry Nelson had me change the recoil spring on the Nelson from 9# to 8#.  

I'll also try out the 41 with my new Eley ammo.  I suspect it's going to work just fine.    

There's also the option of taking the gun to the local gunsmith, and having him go all through it, including the places that I'm afraid to disassemble......
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Post by DA/SA 7/28/2019, 8:53 pm

Can you post a video of you shooting the Nelson?

Are you sure you are holding these pistols tight enough to function properly?

I recall a video where your muzzle was flipping up at least 45 degrees when you shot and that was with two hands.

Sorry, but I just had to ask.
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Post by james r chapman 7/28/2019, 9:16 pm

Your spring has been in compression since the '70's? 
Take that sucker out and compare the length to a new one.

My High Standard Model 106 Military had the original spring in it. It was 1/2 shorter than a new one and very weak...
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Post by mikemyers 7/28/2019, 9:40 pm

james r chapman wrote:Your spring has been in compression since the '70's? 
Take that sucker out and compare the length to a new one.

My High Standard Model 106 Military had the original spring in it. It was 1/2 shorter than a new one and very weak...
My old spring was mostly working two weeks ago.
I ordered a new spring from S&W, and yes, quite a bit longer.
Put the new spring in, and the gun got worse.
I put the old spring back in, and the gun seemed better.
I put the Wolff 6# spring in, and the gun again seemed better, but the ammo wasn't working.

Dave Salyer wrote me, and suggested I put the 6# spring in.


Maybe this Tuesday I can take all my ammo, and all my springs, and a partridge in a pear tree to the range, and try everything in an organized test.
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Post by mustachio 7/28/2019, 9:42 pm

My Ruger/Volquartsen (which is in the Commercial/For Sale Forum) loves Eley Small Game ammo. It is an absolute tack driver. My 41 shoots most ammo well, but LOVES Geco Bolt Action 22LR and Geco semi-auto 22LR. I have lots of CCI, but use it for practice. The Geco is amazing and I got it for $1.99/box of 50. Aguilla Gold Box (no longer made but I still have a cache of it) shoots great in the 41. As well, Federal Target 40 gr. shoots well in the 41.  This is only my experience with a variety of 22 ammo.  I find more often than not, it is the shooter and not so much the ammo.
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Post by orpheoet 7/28/2019, 9:42 pm

Wolff lists 7.5 lbs as factory in the 41
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Post by mikemyers 7/28/2019, 9:52 pm

DA/SA wrote:Can you post a video of you shooting the Nelson?

Are you sure you are holding these pistols tight enough to function properly?

I recall a video where your muzzle was flipping up at least 45 degrees when you shot and that was with two hands.

Sorry, but I just had to ask.
I'm not "sure" of anything.  

On the other hand, with the Nelson the gun hardly moves from recoil, and ditto for the Model 41.

I showed this to someone at the range - put in my CCI and the 41 didn't function, I could shoot the first round, but the next round stayed in the magazine.  If I removed the magazine and started again, what had been the second round fired with no problem, but the round after that did not.  Wiped off the next 5 rounds, and the gun worked.  Put more un-wiped CCI back in, and again the first round fired, the next round stayed in the magazine.  

For the next half hour, I was wiping off my CCI ammo, then loading, and the gun was working.  No issues.

I would think that the 22 would be easy, and maybe the 45 I'd struggle with, but all my 1911's have worked fine for me.


..........and no, my gun doesn't stay close to flat when I shoot 45, but it's better than before, with my new improved grip.
I remember that video.  I'll make a new video when I get a chance.   I do have a recent video shooting my Model 41 - will post it.
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Post by mikemyers 7/28/2019, 10:29 pm

DA/SA wrote:Can you post a video of you shooting the Nelson?
You'll have to settle for my Model 41, several weeks ago:

http://sgrid.com/2019/mike-m41.mp4
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Post by mikemyers 7/28/2019, 10:45 pm

orpheoet wrote:Wolff lists 7.5 lbs as factory in the 41
Now I'm thoroughly confused.  The fellow at S&W I bought the factory OEM spring from said 6.5, but maybe he was confused.  When I go to Wolff to buy their calibration spring kit they post.  "Each Wolff Recoil Calibration Spring Pack comes with 6, 6.5, and 7 lb. recoil springs "

Then I looked here:  https://forums.brianenos.com/topic/125302-sw-mod-41-recoil-spring/

Assuming I stop typing, and get some sleep tonight, I'll go to the range tomorrow with all my springs, and start with shooting the Eley "target" ammo.  If that works fine, problem solved.  I'll also call CCI and ask their advice.  Maybe the CCI struggles when the temperature gets up into the 90's.  Maybe that has an effect on the wax.  




Dave Salyer:  "I would only change to the 6# recoil spring first to see if that solved the m 41 problem."
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Post by mikemyers 7/28/2019, 10:49 pm

mustachio wrote:........My 41 shoots most ammo well, but LOVES Geco Bolt Action 22LR and Geco semi-auto 22LR. ..........
This?

https://www.sportsmansguide.com/product/index/geco-22lr-lrn-40-grain-50-rounds?a=1672378
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Post by mustachio 7/28/2019, 10:53 pm

that or the bolt action Geco. either is a good round.
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Post by mikemyers 7/28/2019, 11:03 pm

james r chapman wrote:Interesting, my ultra slimy Geco sv cycle great in both my Nelson’s. You must be holding your mouth wrong
Oops.....      until a few minutes ago, I had no idea what you were saying, or what a Geco had to do with it.

Sorry.  That's twice.  I thought it was some kind of inside joke that I couldn't figure out.      Oops.....
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