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shooting glasses from an expert

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Post by james r chapman 7/27/2019, 9:24 pm

Shooting glassesi
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Post by lablover 7/27/2019, 10:01 pm

Good stuff
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Post by Outthere 7/28/2019, 5:19 am

Dr.Norman Wong wrote some comprehensive articles on shooting glasses to give to your optometrist.

Worth a read.
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Post by TonyH 7/28/2019, 5:54 am

Outthere wrote:Dr.Norman Wong wrote some comprehensive articles on shooting glasses to give to your optometrist.

Worth a read.
Thanks to Ed Hall, all the Dr. Wong articles are consolidated on his website (starreloaders.com), and includes links to additional articles published in the Shooting Sports USA pages. Enjoy!
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Post by SteveT 7/28/2019, 8:28 am

I totally disagree with this. You do NOT want progressive lenses! small movement of the head means the proscription changes. Not good for consistency. 

"Conventional Pistol shooters can often make good use of modified bifocals or progressive lenses."


Last edited by SteveT on 7/28/2019, 12:03 pm; edited 1 time in total
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Post by Sa-tevp 7/28/2019, 11:09 am

SteveT wrote:I totally disagree with this. You do NOT want progressive lenses! small movement of the head means the proscription changes. Not goot for consistency. 

"Conventional Pistol shooters can often make good use of modified bifocals or progressive lenses."

While I don't want progressive lenses I wouldn't mind if everyone else I was competing with used them. Wink
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Post by jglenn21 7/28/2019, 11:28 am

For red dots i totally agree to NOT use progressive lenses. My daily glasses are progressive and i frankly see soooo much clearer with a single.vision set using my normal preceiption without the Add
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Post by james r chapman 7/28/2019, 11:29 am

I also agree with Steve and Jim
NO on progressive lenses, life’s to beautiful to live in a fishbowl
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Post by xmastershooter 8/3/2019, 5:08 pm

This article was a reprint from October 16, 2015.  I didn't have a chance to respond then so I wrote about some of my techniques for our shooters to share with their eye doctors in the August 2018 issue of Shooting Sports USA.

Some highlights:

The distance from our shooting eye to the front sight is not that important. When the eye doctor measures for the best lens at that distance, he/she would generally put a reading card at that position and the patient would have both eyes opened. This may lead to an erroneous prescription. Our eyes must converge and some accommodation may result.  It would be best and more accurate if only the shooting eye sees the front sight, thereby avoiding convergence.

The statement "...one doesn't have to drag a handgun to the doctor's office...," I do not agree.  The front sight RX measured with the use of a reading card provide limited information.  As we shoot with iron sights, we are least concerned with reading at a specific distance.  More importantly, we need to view the front sight, rear sight as well as the bullseye target to appreciate the best Rx for each of us.  As we compare our preferred sight picture Rx using only the shooting eye, this prescription may very well be different than using only the reading card method.  Including the blur appearance of the bull in determining our shooting Rx is very important as we all tend to have different preferences.  Note that the front sight may be in focus with more than one lens.

I agree that monocular vision doesn't work very well for most shooters.  The shooting eye would focus onto the sights while the opposite eye would be able to focus onto the target.  However, "modified monovision" has worked for many of my patients.  As I experimented with different lens combinations throughout the years, I have found that altering the distance RX by a slight amount would allow shooters to be comfortable and this method does work.

Finally, I do agree with those who wrote that they disagree with the use of progressive lenses for iron sights.  I cannot understand the remarks "This lets shooters access any focal distance with little more than eye movement, allows a constant head position for a proper shooting stance....."  This would not be possible!  As we know, the head must move vertically to locate the spot on the lens to be able to see the sight picture.  Additionally, we must move our heads horizontally to capture the central portion of the lens.  As precision pistol shooters (aka bullseye shooters) we shoot with our bodies turned sideways, some more than others, we must move our head up and sideways in order to shoot with progressive lenses.  It would be improbable if not impossible not to change our "proper shooting stance."

Lastly, thank you to Ed Hall and Ross Chesley for having a place for my eye articles.

Norman

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Post by shootingsight 9/11/2019, 10:11 pm

I don't recommend taking a handgun to a doctor's office.  The VAST majority of pistol shooters I have supplied lenses to, when they were not using an aperture, resulted in the addition of +0.75 diopters to their distance prescription, so for most people, this is an excellent start for less than the cost of the doctor visit with your gun.

This distance reflects the hyperfocal distance, which is the average of focusing on the rear sight and the target.  This means the front sight will be a little more clear than either the target or the rear sight.

If you want to use an aperture in a well-lit range, I have seen good success using a +1.00 with about a 0.070" aperture.  This will make the sights very sharp, without giving up too much clarity on the target.

Obviously, all of these additions assume your distance prescription is correct, so some tuning can be necessary.  But in the vast majority of cases, they work first try.

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Post by DA/SA 9/12/2019, 6:30 am

shootingsight wrote:If you want to use an aperture in a well-lit range, I have seen good success using a +1.00 with about a 0.070" aperture.  This will make the sights very sharp, without giving up too much clarity on the target.

Is that +1.00 in addition to your distance prescription?
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Post by jglenn21 9/12/2019, 8:19 am

Yes, in addition to you distance preceiption. I simply get a set in my distance prescription for dots then use a +1.00 set of flip down lenses for iron sights..

My dad was an OD and shooters used to visit him quite often with their pistol.. a different era..
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Post by DA/SA 9/12/2019, 3:09 pm

Thank You!
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Post by shootingsight 9/12/2019, 3:17 pm

Correct, I am talking about additions to your distance correction.  The medical term for this is simply 'ADD'.  Your distance correction will focus your relaxed eye at infinity.  ADDing power will then bring your focal point back by the reciprocal of the lens power (in meters). 

I sell a line of flip-up lenses for pistol shooters.  I think it is a cleaner solution to get a pair of glasses made, where the ADD power is just added to the prescription, however these single flip up lenses are an easier (and cheaper) solution if you are swapping between red dots and irons.

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Post by ChrisD 10/9/2019, 3:57 am

Very interesting article and one I really need some help on. Just got prescribed glasses earlier this year and have trifocal progressives. My shooting stance is now all screwed up, strictly using Iron sights. I'm stationed in Germany, so it's difficult working with local optical shops to try and get some glasses for shooting (ISSF Pistol). I've been thinking of ordering some online and having them shipped over.  Any advice?
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Post by mikemyers 10/9/2019, 7:28 am

I wasn't impressed by the article, and I don't think the author understood this stuff.
...........This lets shooters access any focal distance with little more than eye movement, allows a constant head position for a proper shooting stance, and ......
Wrong, to change your focus, your eyes continue looking ahead while you tilt your head up or down until the proper focus area is in front of your eyes.
Worse yet, in this entire article, unless I missed it, they never mentioned the importance of getting polycarbonate lenses for safety.


Last edited by mikemyers on 10/9/2019, 12:07 pm; edited 2 times in total (Reason for editing : Apparently I mis-understood what the article was trying to say.)
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Post by shootingsight 10/9/2019, 8:14 am

Best place to order glasses on-line is Zenni Optical, www.zenni.com.  The frames are a little cheap, but I've put the lenses on my lensometer, and they are spot on.  You can get a complete set of glasses in single vision for about $25 delivered.  In polycarbonate, and with basic AR.

A few tricks: eye doctors will often not give you your pupilary distance (PD).  This is a simple meaasurement of the distance between your pupils, in millimeters.  Options are to get a friend to measure it for you, just by holding up a ruler while you look into the distance (doing it yourself by looking in the mirror will have your eyes converge), or in truth, just pick 67 for most men.  It is not THAT important, and since you are shooting with one eye, the PD is not that important.

The other thing is that when you enter the sphere value for your prescription, you want to add +0.75, recognizing that if you are near sighted and have a negative value for your distance prescription, you need to respect the sign, and if you are a -1.50 sphere and add +0.75, you end up at a -0.75.

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Post by mikemyers 10/9/2019, 8:33 am

shootingsight wrote:........when you enter the sphere value for your prescription, you want to add +0.75, recognizing that if you are near sighted and have a negative value for your distance prescription, you need to respect the sign, and if you are a -1.50 sphere and add +0.75, you end up at a -0.75.
Quick question - if you're having your eyes tested, why not just ask the tester to hold the "Vision chart" at 30" from your eyes, or whatever the appropriate distance would be from your eyeball (tip of nose) to the chart, which will give you the exact prescription for the front sight?  

(In India, they do this for me all the time - I hold a business card that distance in front of me, and select what makes it sharpest.  Maybe in the USA it's difficult to get people to do this??)

Not sure how precise this needs to be - I had a pair of glasses made up for 24" from my eye (1911 held with two hands) and 30" (gun held in one hand further away from my eye).  In bright sunlight, they seem to work the same.  Shooting indoors it might make a bigger difference/
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Post by dronning 10/9/2019, 9:15 am

mikemyers wrote:I wasn't impressed by the article, and I don't think the author understood this stuff.

...........This lets shooters access any focal distance with little more than eye movement, allows a constant head position for a proper shooting stance, and ......


Wrong, to change your focus, your eyes continue looking ahead while you tilt your head up or down until the proper focus area is in front of your eyes.



Worse yet, in this entire article, unless I missed it, they never mentioned the importance of getting polycarbonate lenses for safety.
Dr. Wong is very respected in the shooting community both for his knowledge in his field (Optometry) and his shooting accomplishments.  You just flat out misread his article! Do some homework DO NOT make uniformed snap judgments.


Quote:
"Finally, I do agree with those who wrote that they disagree with the use of progressive lenses for iron sights.  I cannot understand the remarks "This lets shooters access any focal distance with little more than eye movement, allows a constant head position for a proper shooting stance....."  This would not be possible!  As we know, the head must move vertically to locate the spot on the lens to be able to see the sight picture.  Additionally, we must move our heads horizontally to capture the central portion of the lens.  As precision pistol shooters (aka bullseye shooters) we shoot with our bodies turned sideways, some more than others, we must move our head up and sideways in order to shoot with progressive lenses.  It would be improbable if not impossible not to change our "proper shooting stance."

You will find the following statement in his article "Health Warning, Protect Your Eyes":
"For your (shooting) eyeglasses, consider using polycarbonate lens material, Transitions tint, or UV coating to block ultraviolet. Shoot well while shooting safely."

- Dave
Additional reading:
Who is Dr. Wong
https://www.starreloaders.com/edhall/nwongarts.html


Last edited by dronning on 10/9/2019, 11:44 am; edited 2 times in total
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Post by Wobbley 10/9/2019, 9:57 am

ChrisD wrote:Very interesting article and one I really need some help on. Just got prescribed glasses earlier this year and have trifocal progressives. My shooting stance is now all screwed up, strictly using Iron sights. I'm stationed in Germany, so it's difficult working with local optical shops to try and get some glasses for shooting (ISSF Pistol). I've been thinking of ordering some online and having them shipped over.  Any advice?

Have you tried contacting someone at the DSB to find out which opticians they recommend?

https://www.dsb.de/schiesssport/
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Post by dronning 10/9/2019, 11:53 am

Wobbley wrote:
ChrisD wrote:Very interesting article and one I really need some help on. Just got prescribed glasses earlier this year and have trifocal progressives. My shooting stance is now all screwed up, strictly using Iron sights. I'm stationed in Germany, so it's difficult working with local optical shops to try and get some glasses for shooting (ISSF Pistol). I've been thinking of ordering some online and having them shipped over.  Any advice?

Have you tried contacting someone at the DSB to find out which opticians they recommend?

https://www.dsb.de/schiesssport/
+1 
also you could give this to your optometrist, I was lucky mine is a competitive shooter but he still appreciated this guide.
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Post by mikemyers 10/9/2019, 12:05 pm

dronning wrote:
mikemyers wrote:I wasn't impressed by the article, and I don't think the author understood this stuff.

...........This lets shooters access any focal distance with little more than eye movement
Dr. Wong is very respected in the shooting community both for his knowledge in his field (Optometry) and his shooting accomplishments.  You just flat out misread his article! Do some homework DO NOT make uniformed snap judgments.
Dave, I apologize if what I wrote was inappropriate, but with all the progressive lenses I'm aware of, the prescription changes from the top or bottom of the lens, and If I want to see something sharp and in focus, as I'm looking at it, I need to move the lens up and down, which is best done by angling my head up or down.  

If he meant that the focal distance would change as the eye moves up and down, that is true.
I thought the topic was making the front sights sharp, which means to me, keeping the head in the ideal position, looking straight ahead, and moving the appropriate part of the lens so it's in front of the eye.

I didn't read the whole article, much less all the other things he's written, and maybe I'm too used to telling people who are getting progressive lenses that the goal is to put the correct part of the lens between the eye and what they are looking at.  Since there's a lot more to it than that, I will edit my above response, and try to strike-out what I wrote.

Done - everything is crossed out in the original post.
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Post by shootingsight 10/9/2019, 2:33 pm

mikemyers wrote:
shootingsight wrote:........when you enter the sphere value for your prescription, you want to add +0.75, recognizing that if you are near sighted and have a negative value for your distance prescription, you need to respect the sign, and if you are a -1.50 sphere and add +0.75, you end up at a -0.75.
Quick question - if you're having your eyes tested, why not just ask the tester to hold the "Vision chart" at 30" from your eyes, or whatever the appropriate distance would be from your eyeball (tip of nose) to the chart, which will give you the exact prescription for the front sight?  

(In India, they do this for me all the time - I hold a business card that distance in front of me, and select what makes it sharpest.  Maybe in the USA it's difficult to get people to do this??)

Not sure how precise this needs to be - I had a pair of glasses made up for 24" from my eye (1911 held with two hands) and 30" (gun held in one hand further away from my eye).  In bright sunlight, they seem to work the same.  Shooting indoors it might make a bigger difference/
You can do what you propose 'sort of'.  Yes, you can place the vision chart closer, except for 2 things:

1.  The front sight distance is the wrong distance to focus.  You want to place it at 2x the distance to the rear sight.  This is the 'hyperfocal' distance of the sight.  If you place it 'at' the front sight, the target will be too blurry.  2x the distance to the rear will center your depth of field between the rear sight and the target, which means the front sight will be slightly sharper than the rear or the target.

2.  If you know the lens power to see the target (your distance vision), the optical math to offset from there is well understood, and is about +0.75 added to your distance.  That said, doctors normally refract you to the closest 1/4 diopter, even though the eye can see steps as low as 1/8.  So if your eye falls right at an odd 1/8 increment, it is sort of a guess if he should round up or down.

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Post by dronning 10/9/2019, 2:44 pm

mikemyers wrote:
dronning wrote:
mikemyers wrote:I wasn't impressed by the article, and I don't think the author understood this stuff.

...........This lets shooters access any focal distance with little more than eye movement
Dr. Wong is very respected in the shooting community both for his knowledge in his field (Optometry) and his shooting accomplishments.  You just flat out misread his article! Do some homework DO NOT make uniformed snap judgments.
Dave, I apologize if what I wrote was inappropriate, but with all the progressive lenses I'm aware of, the prescription changes from the top or bottom of the lens, and If I want to see something sharp and in focus, as I'm looking at it, I need to move the lens up and down, which is best done by angling my head up or down.  <== Exactly his point!

If he meant that the focal distance would change as the eye moves up and down, that is true. <== not what he said, he was politely refuting a remark with  "I can't understand the remarks" (the remark he disagrees with==>"This lets shooters access any focal distance with little more than eye movement, allows a constant head position for a proper shooting stance....."<==(the remark he disagrees with)You misread the remark as something he was saying to be true, but in fact he was disagreeing with it, finishing with "This would not be possible!" 
I thought the topic was making the front sights sharp, which means to me, keeping the head in the ideal position, looking straight ahead, and moving the appropriate part of the lens so it's in front of the eye.  

I didn't read the whole article, much less all the other things he's written, and maybe I'm too used to telling people who are getting progressive lenses that the goal is to put the correct part of the lens between the eye and what they are looking at. <== Exactly what he wrote "As we know, the head must move vertically to locate the spot on the lens to be able to see the sight picture.  Additionally, we must move our heads horizontally to capture the central portion of the lens. "  Since there's a lot more to it than that, I will edit my above response, and try to strike-out what I wrote.

Done - everything is crossed out in the original post.
Mike your are agreeing with what he said but then you again point out (incorrectly) the same statement you originally misread as a point he was trying to make.
- Dave
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Post by mikemyers 10/9/2019, 3:07 pm

shootingsight wrote:
.........The front sight distance is the wrong distance to focus.  You want to place it at 2x the distance to the rear sight.  This is the 'hyperfocal' distance of the sight.  If you place it 'at' the front sight, the target will be too blurry.  2x the distance to the rear will center your depth of field between the rear sight and the target, which means the front sight will be slightly sharper than the rear or the target............
Dave, I accept that.  Am packing suitcases and doing lots of other stuff, not paying enough attention here.



'shootingsight'...........    I'm only going to describe my own experience.  
I had two pair of shooting glasses made for me in India last year.  For both, my left eye was set to "reading distance".  

  • For one pair, my right eye was set to a perfect prescription for 24", the distance to the front sight on my 1911 shooting two-handed, 
  • and the other pair, was set to 30", the distance to my front sight shooting one handed.


When used at the range, both work exactly as I expected, the front sight is perfectly sharp at the intended distance.  
The target meanwhile is not "perfectly sharp", but it's still too sharp.  I would have preferred a blurry target.

I don't think it's the bright sunlight at my range, as I get a similar effect indoors.
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