I’m always fingering with my competition Ammo

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Post by James Hensler on Thu Aug 22, 2019 2:49 pm

I have nailed my long line load and I don’t ever see me changing it but I am always playing with the short line stuff. For a few years I have been shooting Zero 185 LSWC Bullets with 4.3 grains of Titegroup. Well I switched powders to N310 and just love it. Now I still have a few hundred of the old Titegroup rounds still left and now I am having a very hard time with rapid fire getting the 5 round off due to the recoil. Now the groups are x’s and a few 10’s and look amazing but I hear my timer going off with one to go. When I load lighter the groups get a lot bigger and I can’t have that. The N310 at 4.0 feels and shoots just like the 4.3 of Titegroup so I am kinda at a crossroad here! Help!!!!!!!!
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Post by Allen Barnett on Thu Aug 22, 2019 3:13 pm

Try some Vectan Ba10.  3.4 gr with 185 Noslers holds a solid sub X ring at 25 and just over X ring and sub 10 ring at 50 off sandbags with a red dot.  I have not ran it over a chronograph yet but will be doing more testing this winter.  I am using a crimp of 0.469

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Post by weber1b on Thu Aug 22, 2019 3:39 pm

I am trying to understand what you are asking. It sounds like you like the load with N310. So shoot the Titegroup stuff in practice. Are you having issues with the 10 seconds with the N310 load?

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Post by JIMPGOV on Thu Aug 22, 2019 3:43 pm

ADJUST RECOIL IMPULSE WITH RECOIL SPRING CHANGE. JP

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Post by James Hensler on Thu Aug 22, 2019 4:10 pm

Ok I have been shooting a lot of 50 yard get that dialed in and I have been shooting a lot of 22 and 32. Now when I shoot the 45 short line I am used to the lighter recoil and now the 4.3 Titegroup is too harsh. The N310 loads I worked up 4.0 feels just like the Titegroup ones and when I back it down to 3.8 the groups open up on be
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Post by James Hensler on Thu Aug 22, 2019 4:12 pm

For some reason shooting the long line loads feel better when trying them at the short line. Those are Zero JHP 185’s with 4.2 grains of N310
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Post by messenger on Thu Aug 22, 2019 4:19 pm

James Hensler wrote:Ok I have been shooting a lot of 50 yard get that dialed in and I have been shooting a lot of 22 and 32. Now when I shoot the 45 short line I am used to the lighter recoil and now the 4.3 Titegroup is too harsh. The N310 loads I worked up 4.0 feels just like the Titegroup ones and when I back it down to 3.8 the groups open up on be

I'm starting to get over the small caliber center fire curse. I thought I would improve my scores by shooting a low recoiling pistol in CF. All it did was kill my 45 scores. This season I have shot my 45 in CF for about a dozen matches and finally my scores are starting to rise.

Bill
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Post by James Hensler on Thu Aug 22, 2019 4:21 pm

I also used to shoot the 45 in CF but I can’t consistently shoot 870’s like I do with my Pardini! I definitely agree with what you are saying though
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Post by James Hensler on Thu Aug 22, 2019 4:29 pm

One thing I noticed at the Nationals was the top shooters during TF and RF their 45’s barely moved! They looked like my Pardini and didn’t move much at all. My 45 moves a full foot maybe more and it takes a longer time to come back on target. I did try a 18 lb spring and that helped but I am still not happy yet
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Post by weber1b on Thu Aug 22, 2019 4:43 pm

James Hensler wrote:For some reason shooting the long line loads feel better when trying them at the short line. Those are Zero JHP 185’s with 4.2 grains of N310
My experience with 185's, which is mostly on the long line, is you need at least 4.2 grains of the N310 to even move them fast enough for accuracy.

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Post by James Hensler on Thu Aug 22, 2019 4:46 pm

I 100% agree! They like to go faster. From my cheap rest they keep grouping 1 3/4 at 50 yards. Time and time again.
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Post by zanemoseley on Thu Aug 22, 2019 5:13 pm

Have you tried the 160 grain bullets yet? I use them at 25 and 50, they have noticeably less recoil than 185 grain bullets. Might help you speed up your strings and recover quicker.

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Post by James Hensler on Thu Aug 22, 2019 5:25 pm

I have talked to Steve and I am going to but at this point in time I need to use up the stockpile of 185 SWC’s I have .
I hope you are right about the less recoil because that’s what I keep hearing about them
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Post by Dcforman on Thu Aug 22, 2019 6:16 pm

Seems counter intuitive, but you might want to go the other way. Try 200 SWC's. Often times they're accurate enough for the Short line loaded down to 3.3-3.5 BE. Probably same for N310.

Dave

Edit: just use the 185's for practice. It'll make matches feel easy.

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Post by James Hensler on Thu Aug 22, 2019 6:38 pm

I have a few hundred 200’s! I will try to work up at load for them and try it on Tue!
I love being able to shoot 3-4 days a week! Semi Retirement is not bad!
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Post by Dcforman on Thu Aug 22, 2019 8:03 pm

Oh, I'm jealous. Between two young daughters, my own business, and running enough to stay fit, there just aren't enough hours in the day. People keep telling me not to look past the good times I'm having now, but I wouldn't mind working 2-3 days a week!

Dave

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Post by James Hensler on Thu Aug 22, 2019 8:21 pm

Yeah the fruit of my loin is 26
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Post by Dcforman on Thu Aug 22, 2019 8:28 pm

Ha. Yeah, mine are 6 and 1. Got a little ways to go! Smile

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Post by estuck on Thu Aug 22, 2019 10:48 pm

I am using N310 as well with 185 JHP. 4.2-4.3 for long line.  You did not say what your pistol configuration is. Slide mount dot, recoil spring? IMHO you need to find a balance between recoil and function and accuracy. I fell in the trap of trying to load soft loads for 25 yds to reduce recoil. A few years ago it cost me a state match when I double alibied in timed fire. Now I load 3.9 N310 185 JHP . It may be a bit hotter, but I know it will function, even when the gun gets dirty. Requires no recoil spring change, and I have confidence the gun will work. And it punches out the X ring all day long!

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Post by lablover on Thu Aug 22, 2019 11:01 pm

estuck wrote:I am using N310 as well with 185 JHP. 4.2-4.3 for long line.  You did not say what your pistol configuration is. Slide mount dot, recoil spring? IMHO you need to find a balance between recoil and function and accuracy. I fell in the trap of trying to load soft loads for 25 yds to reduce recoil. A few years ago it cost me a state match when I double alibied in timed fire. Now I load 3.9 N310 185 JHP . It may be a bit hotter, but I know it will function, even when the gun gets dirty. Requires no recoil spring change, and I have confidence the gun will work. And it punches out the X ring all day long!
Is that a slide mounted dot?  If so what dot.  I’ve been using  4.3 N310 for long and short line and it’s a bit tough on the short line. And that’s 185 jhp noslers

9000sc slide mounted
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Post by chopper on Fri Aug 23, 2019 1:03 am

James Hensler wrote:One thing I noticed at the Nationals was the top shooters during TF and RF their 45’s barely moved! They looked like my Pardini and didn’t move much at all. My 45 moves a full foot maybe more and it takes a longer time to come back on target. I did try a 18 lb spring and that helped but I am still not happy yet
  James, that's a lot of movement I also watch the better shooters when I get the time. I've noticed their stance is different and I bet they grip the pistol a little stronger overall, causing their wrist and elbow to lock stiffer and the recoil to come straight back to the shoulder I don't have meaty hands, in fact I bet you'd call mine small, so next week I'm going to shim my right side slab to get more of that checkering working for me. BTW I'm right handed.
  I shoot an old Clark Heavyslide right now with slide mount Matchdot about 11lb spring and 200gr. swc over 3.6 gr BE. I'd like to up my load a couple of 10ths for a little bit more consistency and accuracy.
 Stan

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Post by James Hensler on Fri Aug 23, 2019 7:50 am

Sorry not to mention it
Remington R1 Enhanced
Frame dust cover mount
Matchdot 2
Was using a 10lbs spring
Switched to a 18
Ordered the spring kit from EBay
7 through 16
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Post by estuck on Fri Aug 23, 2019 11:57 am

18# recoil spring with a frame mount dot? That seems heavy to me. I Shoot a Sams frame mount with a #14 spring and ejection is perfect. But if it works, and the slide locks back after the last round then its all good. You may try sticking with the 185 JHP for the short line and try some slightly lighter loads. Maybe 3.8 to 3.9.

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Post by James Hensler on Fri Aug 23, 2019 12:14 pm

I am sure the 18 is to heavy but other then the 10 it’s all I have at the moment. I ordered every spring and will be here next week!
I have 500 JHP on the shelf so I am working up some loads this weekend and see what happens.

I pay 125 for the SWC and 190 for the JHP so there is quite the difference in cost but if I can’t find the right compromise I will make the switch.
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Post by Allgoodhits on Fri Aug 23, 2019 12:42 pm

chopper wrote:
James Hensler wrote:One thing I noticed at the Nationals was the top shooters during TF and RF their 45’s barely moved! They looked like my Pardini and didn’t move much at all. My 45 moves a full foot maybe more and it takes a longer time to come back on target. I did try a 18 lb spring and that helped but I am still not happy yet
  James, that's a lot of movement I also watch the better shooters when I get the time. I've noticed their stance is different and I bet they grip the pistol a little stronger overall, causing their wrist and elbow to lock stiffer and the recoil to come straight back to the shoulder I don't have meaty hands, in fact I bet you'd call mine small, so next week I'm going to shim my right side slab to get more of that checkering working for me. BTW I'm right handed.
  I shoot an old Clark Heavyslide right now with slide mount Matchdot about 11lb spring and 200gr. swc over 3.6 gr BE. I'd like to up my load a couple of 10ths for a little bit more consistency and accuracy.
 Stan

Sorry for the length of this reply. Ammo, springs, stance, grip are so related in many ways. Sometimes the solution to what was perceived in one area, is found in another. I like many, toyed with so much of this. Having come from an action background regarding making a 1911 shoot flat (minimal muzzle rise and dip) I have some suggestions and explanations which may be counter to what one may think. Additionally, now trying to squeeze all I can out of what ever talent I have, it becomes all about making one shoot, or be able to shoot as good as they can be taught to shoot, with the equipment that they have. There are many ways to make a pot of soup. All soups require some basics. Here is my discovery, of what others have tried to tell or teach me, put into how I figured out how to put it together for me.

The recoil is the same. it is a function of energy. The amount of movement permitted as a result of that energy during the recoil is a different matter. I will try to explain.

Get the correct recoil spring for your load and set up. The recoil spring works, in part, like a suspension on an automobile. It allows movement so that you do not feel 100% of the impact from the energy.  A lighter recoil spring will soften the felt recoil more than a heavier one, provided, that you don't have it too light, and you get the second impact at the end of the slide movement. You have to find the lightest spring possible which prevents this condition, and chambers the next round. This will mechanical permit the semi auto to shoot it's flattest. Flattest meaning least amount of muzzle lift during recoil and dip during chambering and recovery. Lightest/balanced magazine springs possible help too.

Your grip, position/stance, using the above analogy become the shock absorber. In other words, it also softens that impulse, but more important takes the bounce out of it. The recoil is the same, how you permit that recoil to effect you is what differs. Again, go back to the automobile and suspension analogy. You drive a certain vehicle over a road and you hit ruts and potholes. Modify the suspension, then drive the same vehicle across the same road, hitting same potholes. The feel is much different, yet energy of vehicle hitting ruts was the same.  With proper balanced load, springs, grip, stance/position the slide will come back with push to rear, but minimal muzzle lift. When the slide goes forward, it is just enough to chamber the round, and it does not slam into battery, causing the muzzle to dip. It is balanced, thus takes less work to perform the same task.

YRMV, but for me after much experimenting and after being told by some of the best. You need to "get behind" the gun. It took me a while to get a grasp on exactly what this meant, and how I could make it happen, repeatedly. For me, If I am not behind the gun, then it torques more to one side, and not straight back. Of course it will always torque some becomes it ejects out the side, and we are shooting with one hand. If the gun torques to one side, then the recovery is not 100% up and down, or back and forth. That torqued recovery also has a twist which must need to be recovered from. The other thing that I found, is that if not behind the gun, as fatigue sets in, the head tends to drop toward the gun rather than gun to eye level. This condition for me (right handed) then contributes to the gun wanted to drift to the left and slightly low. Add a little trigger anxiety and a real low left shot happens. For some that low left poor shot is an 8 oclock 9, for others it is an 8 oclock 5.

Again, YRMV, but this helped me solve some of the things mentioned above. I was told to get behind the gun, but wasn't sure exactly how to implement that, even though I was told. Here is what I found.  Take a position, bring gun to target. Then move rear foot to where ever it needs to be so that there is a straight line from the ankle of your hind or rear foot, through the bore (guns center) and the target AND that same approximate line runs through your shoulders. If your arm is fully extended, then you have maximized getting behind the gun, in a line with the bore. I am right handed. For me, this actually has my left or rear ankle, further to the right than my front or right ankle. This does take some getting used to, as for me, my head, then must turn completely sideways, otherwise, I am looking through the corners of my glasses.

Not done yet... In order to complete this position or stance after getting the above figured out. While keeping my head turned to target and straight upright, I next bring the arm up at the shoulder, until it indexes firmly on the right under side of my chin. While keeping that spot weld, the arm, but not shoulder is lowered to the target center. Adjust rear foot as needed to align with target center as naturally as possible for this very "unnatural" position. If done properly, this position will help eliminate the torque or twisting movement of the upper body during recoil impulse, thus the gun will rise and fall vertically, in line assuming the elbow, wrist and grip are "locked" or maintained with out movement. Additionally, since the arm is locked, the shoulder is spot welded to the chin, the recoil is more straight back, rather than up. Your head and chin, help hold the shoulder/arm down, forcing any impulse to be limited to straight back, minimizing up. Get the suspension of the gun set up right, and it makes handling so much easier. Finally, since all of these have finite positions within our bodies, then those positions become more easily repeatable. Make the pistol feel like shooting a rifle with one hand may be a way of looking at this.

To be completely honest, when I first started doing this, it was very awkward, very. Then it became down right painful. Not during the shooting, but when I relaxed the shoulder to drop away from my chin, it felt like someone stabbed me in the center of back with a knife, where the should blades meets the center of the back. This was nothing but muscle fatigue, but yes it hurt. It took a few weeks or longer to develop that muscle action needed to cause this to happen without that cramp/pain.

Many of the top precision pistol shooters on the planet utilize a position like or similar to what I attempted to describe. It was suggested to me by Jon Shue. I could quite get a handle on it, then one day, after sticking with it, and through the pain and awkwardness the dividend starting happening. Do what works for you, but I would strongly suggest trying some elements of this. It just may extract a few more points out of your talent bag. At a minimum, it should make you more consistent.

All the best,

MJ
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