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Slow fire sucks

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mspingeld
Stee
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CR10X
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Post by Mike38 8/30/2019, 11:27 pm

I shot a .22 caliber 900 tonight for postal league. 801-16x which is pretty good for me. Best target of the night was a 97-5x in timed fire. Expert is visible down the road anyhow. But, my slow fire scores plain suck. 78-0, 75-0, 81-1. If I could pick up just 5 points per slow fire target.... So educate me. What's the one thing you'd suggest? I did notice that when I shot the 81 SF that I told myself dozens of times, keep on that front sight dummy. That helped some. If my other two SF targets where 81's, I would just touch Expert. So is that it, front sight, front sight, front sight?
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Post by john bickar 8/31/2019, 12:40 am

What stage of the Marine Corps workbook are you stuck on?
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Post by CR10X 8/31/2019, 6:34 am

What John said.

And... This is the place where a journal starts paying off.  Keep good records of your SF shot strings, match and training.  

How many center shots are there per string on average?  This shows your consistency for "good" shots.  Learn to recognize the shot process, trigger position and operation, grip and visual inputs that creates these shots. Review each of these or remember seeing what you did before every shot.

Are you losing points on 2, 3, or 4 shots way outside, or just a bunch of consistent 8's in a general ring around the middle?  This may tell you how many times you're holding too long, didn't see the process, lost focus, inconsistent trigger or grip.  This is basically the minimum number of times you may need to abort and restart your process.  What are the indicators that these shots are not going to be like the ones in the first group? Learn to recognize these and just start over. 

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Post by Mike38 8/31/2019, 9:32 am

Are you losing points on 2, 3, or 4 shots way outside, or just a bunch of consistent 8's in a general ring around the middle?  This may tell you how many times you're holding too long, didn't see the process, lost focus, inconsistent trigger or grip.  This is basically the minimum number of times you may need to abort and restart your process.


There it is right there! I just realized, out of the 30 slow fire shots taken last night, I did not abort one of them. I'm not recognizing a less than perfect process. Replaying it in my mind, I lost focus and/or held too long on greater than 50% of the shots. Thank you.  
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Post by Mike38 8/31/2019, 9:44 am

john bickar wrote:What stage of the Marine Corps workbook are you stuck on?

How different is the Marine Corps workbook and the book from X-count Training Systems which I have? The X-count book tells you what to do, but not how to do it. Or, is the "how to" already between my ears, I just have to find it?

Yes, that's it. I've shot an X in slow fire that wasn't dumb luck, it was skill. What I need to do is recognize the process that I used to execute that X, and repeat it.

I'm on the right track?
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Post by CR10X 8/31/2019, 1:35 pm

You seem to have the idea.  Learn to see and understand what a good shot process / execution looks / feels like and visualize it. Then repeat it. A lot..... 

Then when the shot process becomes natural (hopefully when everything comes together) the only thing you really have to do it decide if you need to restart (abort).  

Generally for me that's when I recognize if I had time to think about the shot not going off, the time has passed and I should start over..... Emphasis on "should", but I'm getting better at it.  And the older I get, the shorter amount of time I have to complete a good shot.  Read about reducing time needed to complete the trigger in the Pistol Shooter's Treasury - "The Great Game of Shooting", Blankenship - section on Positive Pressure

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Post by jmdavis 9/3/2019, 3:35 pm

Mike38 wrote:
john bickar wrote:What stage of the Marine Corps workbook are you stuck on?

How different is the Marine Corps workbook and the book from X-count Training Systems which I have? The X-count book tells you what to do, but not how to do it. Or, is the "how to" already between my ears, I just have to find it?

Yes, that's it. I've shot an X in slow fire that wasn't dumb luck, it was skill. What I need to do is recognize the process that I used to execute that X, and repeat it.

I'm on the right track?

I'm not John, and I know he's happy I don't look like him, but...

They are basically the same, the X-Count revises a few things and actually offers more explanation. But I will be honest. If you did the Marine manual from start to finish without any explanation, you would be dramatically ahead of just going to the range and shooting NMCs or practicing with no method. Do it with the 22, then the wad gun, then the ball gun. Some of the exercises don't get easier and then WHAM, something clicks and you succeed. Then you succeed again. The first time that I shot the 10 in 10, I shot my first clean 5 minutes later and then a couple of more at the match the next day. As a friend told me many times, whether you think that you can or you can't, you will. 


There are alot of people on here who have used it and I think many would be willing to help explain things
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Post by bruce martindale 9/3/2019, 8:46 pm

Link for workbook? Thanks

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Post by jmdavis 9/4/2019, 7:22 am

The link is posted as a Sticky on the Fundamental section of this forum.
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Post by Stee 10/2/2019, 8:29 pm

I suffered a heart attack in April, triple bypass.  Chest just starting to feel normal but my shoulder got stretched during operation and no strength.  My slowfire has improved since I know I cannot hold on target as long as I used to and my slow fire before suffered because of trying to place a perfect shot... need to trust the wobble and not allow your muscles to start dancing due to a long hold

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Post by mspingeld 10/3/2019, 8:18 am

This week, for the first time, I SAW THE TRACE! This relates to many prior posts and, particularly, a post a while back on the use of a Scatt or Rika training device.

https://www.bullseyeforum.net/t6498p25-new-dry-fire-system-scatt-alternative?highlight=rika#58135

The other night, I was shooting irons, which I've been doing a lot lately. It wasn't going particularly well so I put the dot back on and I saw it! I watched it wobble around the ten ring. I could draw it if I wanted to. I never really saw it before.

Mike38: Per Ed and Cecil, learn to see it. Learn when it's at it's tightest and learn how long until it starts to grow (abort, abort, abort).

I think I'm on to something here. I committed to finish the outdoor season with irons, one more match, but for indoor season, this is the area I'm going to concentrate on.

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Post by Ed Hall 10/4/2019, 10:38 am

Glad to read you've made progress in being able to "see" the shot unfolding.  Dots may help in this, but you should be able to also follow the process with irons.  Remember to continue the trigger while you watch the dance, so the shot will happen appropriately.

I would also add:  Look for the tightening of the hold and reasons to continue the shot, rather than looking for the widening to signal an abort.  "Seek what you desire."

Looking forward to reading how your Indoor season goes.

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Post by Mike38 10/12/2019, 11:27 pm

I wanted to update my progress with over coming my poor slow fire scores. Since that 801 that I shot the end of August, I haven't live fired one shot. I've spent my training time dry firing, and mentally setting up a shot process. I do believe I'm on the right track now. I got my Benelli out last night and fired another 900. Slow fire scores of 89-89-86. Much better than those low to mid 70's that I normally get. I shot an 834-16x. If my mind veers off the shot process, even for a split second, I abort the shot. I probably aborted 12-13 times during the 30 shots of slow fire. I'm sure that my shot process needs serious tweaking, and will evolve into something even better than it is now, but I am pleased with my improvement so far. 

Here's my shot process, repeated in my mind before each and every shot of slow fire, and before the first shot in sustained fire. 

Shooting a slow fire (timed or rapid) target, putting holes in the X-ring.
Is my stance good?
Yes.
Is my grip good?
Yes.
Deep breath, in through the nose, out through the mouth.
Raise pistol above target and settle into aiming area while starting to apply pressure on trigger.
Am I on the front sight (focused on front sight)?
Yes.
Pressssssssssssssss trigger.
Pistol goes bang.
Follow through.
Lower pistol to bench (if slow fire)
Repeat.

Like I said, this is not etched in stone, and will evolve as needed. I imagine my shot process will one day be what Brain Zins joked about in his video. "Pick up gun, shoot gun, put gun down."

A shot process. It helps!
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Post by Stee 10/13/2019, 10:47 am

any advantages to start a practice at 35 ft then move back to fifty.  One guy I shoot with said it helps him with his concentration.. never heard of that, was wondering if anyone does this.

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Post by Mike38 10/13/2019, 3:32 pm

Stee wrote:any advantages to start a practice at 35 ft then move back to fifty.  One guy I shoot with said it helps him with his concentration.. never heard of that, was wondering if anyone does this.

I've never heard of such a thing either. My first thoughts are, you are doing nothing but fooling yourself, but that's just me. I would think that training on official targets at distances the same as a match would make for better training.
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Post by bruce martindale 10/13/2019, 7:27 pm

Ditto, if anything, train at harder targets than you would compete at.
At one time, l trained TF and rapid at 50 yards.

I went through a period of poor results but think I am finally back on track. My last match started rough but I got on track as the day wore on. The other thing, for me at least, is local training for an hour, isn't the same this as match shooting where additional factors highlight errors.

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Post by Stee 10/13/2019, 8:40 pm

that is what I felt also, hey if he thinks it helps whatever, I set up a 50 ft. in my basement for dry fire. seems to have really helped

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Post by Jon Eulette 10/13/2019, 10:27 pm

Your shot process description is a very long process. You should shorten it to make it easy and less distracting. If you train all your fundamentals individually they become ingrained and easily repeatable. Focus on the one fundamental that is most important to you; trigger or sights. Keep it simple. Overthinking leads to poor shooting. Let subconscious trained mind handle the other fundamentals. Conscious mind on the one fundamental. It's really quite simple once you get it.
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Post by chopper 10/14/2019, 9:38 am

Jon Eulette wrote:Your shot process description is a very long process. You should shorten it to make it easy and less distracting. If you train all your fundamentals individually they become ingrained and easily repeatable. Focus on the one fundamental that is most important to you; trigger or sights. Keep it simple. Overthinking leads to poor shooting. Let subconscious trained mind handle the other fundamentals. Conscious mind on the one fundamental. It's really quite simple once you get it.
Jon
  +++1 Very good advise.
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Post by CR10X 10/14/2019, 1:55 pm

I don't think the shot process you described is too long, especially for the first shot of the slow fire string.  

Once you get your position set, then you don't have to repeat that.  

Once you get the trigger finger placement / grip set, you only have to recheck the grip pressure before each shot. (When you relax the grip between shots when the gun is on the bench, do not increase or decrease grip pressure when the gun is raised and on the target.)

Do have your fundamental thought (focus) as mentioned above.  Some people do better with "trigger", others do better with "front sight" / "dot" / "target" - depending on personal preference.  (And don't be surprised if it needs changing from time to time to keep your focus sharp.)

Looks a lot shorter than some multi-step shot processes I've seen on the list or written on some gun boxes.  

At this point, you might try reading "Fearless Golf" by Dr. Gio Valiante; if you want to branch out into the mental aspects of performance and training.  Or really, how to approach setting up a good mental outlook for training and match shooting.  

For shooting, when he says "What's my target?" before each shot, shooters would generally replace it with "What's my focus?" 

Otherwise shooting kinda like golf where you should play one shot (even for a string) at a time with your specific "target" = golf  / "focus" = shooting.  You can't play the last shot, you can't play the next shot, you can't consciously focus on all the things you have to do for a successful shot (and a whole bunch of other similar things). 

Get that shot completed with your focus (evaluate as needed) and move on to the next one.)

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Post by rich.tullo 11/5/2019, 3:41 pm

My Dad said it in a nutshell. "SF should be the easiest stage because you you only chose the best shots." Easier said then done. 

While I am no Master my SF is at Master levels most of the time. A couple of tips: try not to check the scope once you are confident your shots are on call. Cancel shots that do not come together. Follow through once the shot breaks you should still be on target. Do not try to dress the target. Also, I think the B8 is better for practice then the B4 at 25 yards because if you shoot tenx slow fire you are in the 90's and you focus on the right things instead of torturing yourself mentally. 

Goals, first goal is to get ten shots in the black, second goal is to get ten shots in 8 ring or better third goal is get more tens then 8s. As your groups tighten and you hold sub 8 your scotces (not that scores mean anything) will improve to mid 80's then to high 80's. Getting into master SF scores after that is all about equipment, testing and trigger feel.
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