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How much Holding Drill and dry-fire practicels is appropriate during training

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Post by mikemyers on 9/13/2019, 9:31 am

First topic message reminder :

When I used to dry-fire for about half an hour every day, everything seemed fine, although it took a while to notice the benefits.

I've noticed that if I dry-fire for an hour, something in my shoulder/neck/arm starts to feel sore.  In two days maximum, all is back to normal.


Not wanting to develop any shoulder issues, I'm wondering if this is perfectly normal, or does it mean I should shorten my dry-fire practice sessions, maybe doing them more often, but for a shorter period of time.  I guess my question is "how much is too much", or maybe I should word it "is it normal to feel "sore" after doing this?

(Just for reference, Keith Sanderson suggested something like one minute of "holding", followed by two minutes of "rest".  I'm sure the "holding" is what is causing the discomfort, not the firing.  It's not really "pain", just a feeling of being "sore".  Nothing hurts if my move my arm around, or hold the gun out in front of me. )


Last edited by mikemyers on 9/13/2019, 10:36 am; edited 1 time in total (Reason for editing : added "holding drills" to title)
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Post by CR10X on 9/16/2019, 7:52 am

....even if I know I'll never get "there"

...and while I will never get "there"....

As long as you keep saying and typing that, you will not be able to have as much success as you could for  

...continuing to improve up to the limit of my own ability

because you are already limiting your ability to comprehend, visualize and commit.  

No one knows the limit of their own ability, they only know what they have already done.  

Some people have a plan, train and visualize to exceed that. 

Other people think they know the limit of their ability and just settle for whatever. 

CR

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Post by DA/SA on 9/16/2019, 7:54 am

mikemyers wrote: even if I know I'll never get "there".   

 and while I will never get "there",

That's (still) your biggest obstacle right there!

Quit going to the range expecting your equipment and/or your performance to fail.


(Cecil was quicker on the draw..)
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Post by dronning on 9/16/2019, 8:34 am

Whether you think you can, or you think you can't--you're right.”
- Henry Ford


This sport is 99% mental.
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Post by mikemyers on 9/16/2019, 9:00 am

I'm sure you guys are right, but I have found I lead a much happier life when I set reasonable goals, and get to see myself accomplish them.  Then I set another goal.

My current goal is to get all my shots in the black.
When/if I can do that, I'll set another goal.

I mean, thanks for the encouragement, but there's a better chance we will have a snowstorm in Miami tomorrow, than that I will out-shoot Brian, or CR.   :-)
It's a nice fantasy.     

Is it an "obstacle"?

This has nothing to do with my equipment.  It has everything to do with my performance.  One phone call to Jon and I'll have equipment as good an anyone.

'DA/SA', I'm not sure how this can relate to "failing".
I'm sure you guys have much bigger dreams than I have.  
Everyone has their own life and performance and so on, and probably their own "goals".

Maybe you guys are right, and I'm wrong, but I know how good I feel when I actually accomplish a goal.  That's why I pick goals that are not impossible.      :-)

Hey, sure, next year I'll win the Championship at Perry, and out-shoot Keith...  ......but it won't even be at Perry.
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Post by dronning on 9/16/2019, 9:15 am

My goal is to follow my shot process perfectly on my current shot and to score a 10.  The more I focus on the shot process and execute what it takes to shoot a 10 the more 10's I shoot.

There is nothing else there is only the shot your are shooting.
- That's it
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Post by CR10X on 9/16/2019, 9:24 am

You were not talking about goals.  If you don't know the difference between mental outlook and goals, here's another place for you to start looking.  You did  / do seem have a mental outlook that should be adjusted or it can limit you.  

And that's why it's so damn frustrating trying to talk to you.  You jump from one subject to another without even recognizing the difference or just get jumbled up.  Since others are reading the statements and responses, some of us try and help correct perceptions or ideas that may impede the development of good habits and better ways to approach training, even if you do not think they are important ( or will work, even apply to you, etc.).   

If you want goals, here.  Try to see the difference between  "committed to" (create conditions or training for desired outcome) and "focused on" (areas or things to do to help create the desired outcome) as goals. What most people call goals are simply desired outcomes (shooting X number of 10's, a certain score, some group size, winning a particular match, etc.).   (Not mine, these are from an article. I have my own, they are similar.  I transitioned to this type of goal setting some time back.)

From: Shoot Holes in Your Goals
by Dr. Raymond Prior - Tuesday, May 24, 2016
Setting Goals


Committed to:
-Having a great attitude.
-Giving my best effort no matter what.
-Spend at least 30 minutes a day dry firing.
-Ignoring other peoples' opinions or criticism.

Focused on:
-My shot process.
-Just seeing the target and reacting.
-Positive and productive self-talk.
-Maintaining good body language.

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Post by DA/SA on 9/16/2019, 3:39 pm

I've never seat a "goal" to with the Nationals, nor have I even thought about doing so, but then again I have never once thought that "I could NEVER with the nationals" There is a big difference in the two.

I just keep training and shooting to the best of my ability at each range trip and slowly but steadily climbing the ladder.

I set little "goals" for each range visit or match, just like your "goal" is to keep all shots in the black. 

Having a positive attitude makes a difference!
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Post by mikemyers on 9/17/2019, 8:23 pm

I think I'll eventually understand some of the above ideas better.  A lot of the "do this" or "don't do that" fits into my brain more easily than some of the other concepts.  Maybe I'm over-simplifying things.  Regardless, following what you guys say to the best of MY ability might not get a target like yours, but it's getting me better targets over time compared to the past.  

This is from this morning, mostly Eley CMP ammo, almost all of which worked perfectly in the Nelson.  There's around 18 or 19 rounds in each target, as I stopped shooting when people wanted to go down-range and change targets.  There's also at least one shot that was trying to reach Mars, when I accidentally fired before I was fully ready.  Every 15 or 20 shots, the gun goes 'click' instead of 'bang', but it always fires correctly the second time.  Today was cooler than last week - it's going to get still cooler.  Maybe by the time we have Sunday's match, it will get comfortable, both for me, and for the ammunition!

It's strange that the two targets are so similar - the target at the left was concentrating as hard as I could on the sights, and letting the trigger take care of itself (hopefully doing what I've learned in dry-fire).  The target at the right is the opposite - I concentrated as hard as I could on the trigger, letting the sights take care of themselves, I guess with my subconscious.


Also, I added the lighter barrel weight from Nelson, and the additional weight at the end of the gun seems to have helped keep the gun more stable.

I know you guys get frustrated with me, but I want to say how much I appreciate the advice, especially the things have been able to change from what I used to do.  

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Post by DA/SA on 9/17/2019, 9:09 pm

You're rapidly closing in on the ten ring! Just completely ignore anything that isn't within the ten ring and just focus on the shots within it.

Just try to remember all of the shots within the ten ring as if they are the only shots on the targets and just imagine that's all there is. (that's why saving targets isn't a good thing) A friend of mine has a great saying: "That may not be the way it was, but it's the way I remember it!". 

Just keep imagining that all you shot today was tens and X's, and keep visualizing that, and see what happens the next time you shoot!

...and every range visit from now on, do the same, just completely ignore anything outside of the ten ring like it never happened.
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Post by inthebeech on 9/18/2019, 4:45 am

Whatever he's doing and thinking, he's shooting Master-level scores.
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Post by DA/SA on 9/18/2019, 8:09 am

Yes, good enough may be good enough...but he is quite capable of ten ring shooting.
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Post by mikemyers on 9/19/2019, 4:36 pm

DA/SA wrote:Yes, good enough may be good enough...but he is quite capable of ten ring shooting.
Well, any journey starts with individual steps.  

I went to the range this morning, did some warm-up, then shot three targets with 20 rounds each, and then tried something new.  I originally intended to shoot 40 rounds at one target, but it ended up as 50. 

  • After 10 rounds all were in the black.
  • After 20, one hole was just above the black, not inside.
  • After 30, no change.
  • At that point I felt tired, and ought to have stopped, but since this is just testing, I continued.
  • After 35, the three holes with circles around them appeared.  So I stopped for a few minutes and rested.
  • I didn't want to stop until I was shooting well again, so I kept going until I reached 50 rounds.  
  • No new holes appeared outside the black, which put me in a very good mood.


It might sound silly, but each magazine felt like it was getting easier to do this, other than when my arm felt tired.

 
I think from now on I'll "cheat" and keep shooting 5-round magazines at the same target until there are ten holes in the 10-ring, however long it takes.  
Then I'll start on a new target.  If you're right, the number of shots outside the 10 ring should gradually decrease.  


(I also want to do something just for fun, which for now means shooting at the B-8 target with my new Walther PPK/S.  I shoot 20 rounds, then pack up and go home.)


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Post by DA/SA on 9/19/2019, 6:19 pm

Who cares about the eights.

Keep your focus on the positive!

Look at your X count.  It's going up!  And so are the tens.

The greater majority of little holes are within the ten ring...that's what you're looking for.

Nice!

Carry on!
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Post by mikemyers on 9/19/2019, 6:27 pm

I need to train my brain to see things the way you do!   
Ignore anything outside of the 10 ring.

Thanks!!
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Post by DA/SA on 9/19/2019, 6:40 pm

mikemyers wrote:I need to train my brain to see things the way you do!   

THAT'S WHAT WE'VE BEEN TRYING TELL YOU!!   Laughing
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Post by dronning on 9/19/2019, 9:08 pm

mikemyers wrote:I need to train my brain to see things the way you do!   
Ignore anything outside of the 10 ring.

Thanks!!
I think I've posted this for you a couple of times, maybe now it's making sense.

This is from the attached PDF:
Lanny Bassham, Founder of Mental Management and Olympic Gold Medalist in Rifle
I was once asked, "Mr. Bassham, in the 1978 World Championships, you shot a 598/600 to win a medal. What happened on those two nines?" I answered, "Do you really want to know? Do you want to know how I got those nines? That will not help you. You don't want to know how I got two nines. What you should be asking is how I got 58 tens. Besides, I can't remember how I got the nines. I do not reinforce bad shots by remembering them." You should only talk about your good shots to improve the probability that you will have more good shots in the future.

- Dave
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Post by dronning on 9/19/2019, 9:24 pm

One of my very first matches I was shooting next to a High Master.  We were talking and I started to complain about some shots outside of the repair center and he stopped me dead in my tracks and said don't focus on the bad shots it's NOT productive!!  He then pointed a 3 shot knot I had just inside the 10 ring and told me, focus on that, repeat that.
- Dave
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Post by mikemyers on 9/19/2019, 9:45 pm

Not sure how to say this.  

The easy part is that I know you are all correct.  I proved it to myself when I got home, bothered by those three bad shots, rather than being excited about what DA/SA pointed out about the good shots, which far outnumber the bad ones.  

The difficult part is changing the way I "see things".  Nothing is impossible.  I just have to force myself to think of these things (and others) the way you guys have been telling me for a long time.  It never really "clicked" until tonight.  Instead of being happy about all the good shots, I was ignoring that and thinking about the bad ones.  I guess that's why when I made my post, I went to the trouble of explaining why the bad shots were there.  


As to my brain.....   it feels like I'm putting on a new set of clothes, that seem to be quite comfortable.
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Post by james r chapman on 9/20/2019, 4:41 am

I just focus on the two skid “X”s.
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Post by mikemyers on 9/20/2019, 4:51 am

james r chapman wrote:I just focus on the two skid “X”s.
You lost me..........
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Post by james r chapman on 9/20/2019, 8:44 am

mikemyers wrote:
james r chapman wrote:I just focus on the two skid “X”s.
You lost me..........
Ask Tony and Joe!
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Post by james r chapman on 9/20/2019, 10:26 am

mikemyers wrote:
james r chapman wrote:I just focus on the two skid “X”s.
You lost me..........
My fault.

Ok, at Thursday group practice, with Tony, Joe, Cliff Curt, Pat and Jack, to name a few. I was shooting revolver, a S&W M66-1, modified with a Patridge front sight and a Weigand rear sight insert, both illegal for NRA Distinguished Revolver by the way. I was shooting .38 Special 148 gr Remington HBWC’s, you know you can’t find them anymore?, over 2.7 gr WST and a roll crimp, and of course Federal Primers for consistent ignition.
Things were getting dicey after timed fire, obviously I don’t shoot revolver anymore, and with Rapid fire beginning I new I needed to get my game up. Remembering everything Jerry, Jon, Brian, Eric, and Mike had told me, I gripped hard, started my trigger squeeze, and as the target faced finished firing the first shot.
For the second stage, I carefully loaded another five rounds and settled in for the remaining commands again starting my trigger squeeze and firing as the target turned.

When we went down to score, there were two inch long holes at 9 o’clock in the X ring, my target turn shots/
I’d never done that before and only wanted to burn that image into my mind.
That was my thought.
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Post by TonyH on 9/20/2019, 10:33 am

More skid(m@rk)s than a grown man should be allowed to have!!  lol!
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Post by mikemyers on 9/20/2019, 4:15 pm

Aha!!!!   Understod.

Two of them????????    Gee, you must have awesome timing!!
I'd have stopped to take a photo.    :-)
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Post by james r chapman on 9/20/2019, 6:44 pm

Wish I had! But, a match in progress,
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