"Berry's Superior Plated Bullets® are the finest bonded copper-jacketed bullets available today....." ??

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Post by mikemyers on Fri Sep 20, 2019 6:59 pm

First topic message reminder :

I asked my newly-found favorite gunsmith, Frank, at the "Only the Best" gunshop in Ft. Lauderdale Florida to help me with some remaining issues with my S&W Model 52, the one I've been working on/with for months.  He did a fantastic job, in only a few days, for a reasonable price.  I thought it was going to take weeks.  Anyway, the remaining issues I had are now gone, rounds no longer get "stuck" going into the chamber, and the slide feels like it's running back and forth on an air bearing.  He polished several places, including the feed ramp that used to have a "gouge" in it, but now looks like a glass mirror.

He gave me lots of advice about the gun, and strongly suggested I stop using lead bullets.  He recommends the bullets posted below, from Berry's Manufacturing.  He tells me the gun will remain cleaner, and the plated bullets offer better precision than what I used to reload, or the cartridges I'm buying now from Federal, Magtech, and Zero.

Copied from that page:  "Berry's Superior Plated Bullets:registered: are the finest bonded copper-jacketed bullets available today. Starting with a swaged lead core, they are electroplated with copper to their final weight, leaving no lead exposure. They are then re-struck to precise specifications, ensuring a solid bond and providing consistency with every round. Indoor range safe and unbelievably accurate, Berry's Superior Plated Bullets:registered: are the choice of shooters everywhere."

What are your thoughts?

(I'm asking this for the future - I stopped loading 38 Special for a while, using Terry's #514 bullets, and I've only been using purchased 38 Special cartridges for the past several months.  The only reloading I'm now doing is 45 ACP.)

https://www.berrysmfg.com/product/bp-38-357-148gr-hbwc

"Berry's Superior Plated Bullets® are the finest bonded copper-jacketed bullets available today....."  ?? - Page 2 20190821164911_148HBWC


Last edited by mikemyers on Sat Sep 21, 2019 9:46 am; edited 2 times in total (Reason for editing : Typo, I meant #514, not 515.)
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Post by orpheoet on Sat Sep 21, 2019 4:41 pm

^^^^^^^ My 52-2 taught me that lesson. Shoots great indoors. good at 25 yards, awful at 50 yards. This thread actually inspired me to take it to the range today.
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Post by LenV on Sat Sep 21, 2019 5:33 pm

Berry's didn't lie. They are the top of the line plated bullet. Putting them in direct competition with "Rainier" plated bullets. I've tried them both. I don't have any left that I didn't just blast away or pull. But they didn't lie. They just don't tell the whole story.

Len
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Post by mikemyers on Sat Sep 21, 2019 8:31 pm

BE Mike wrote:^^^^^^^THIS^^^^^^^^^ I shot an 8 round magazine full of Acme 200 gr. coated SWC .45 ACP rounds last Thursday with my iron sighted Springfield Armory Match Target. I used two hands, standing/ unsupported at 25 yards. They were shot on a 25 yard T&R center. 6 of the 8 shots were in one hole in the X and the other two were tens (my fault, I'm certain). I don't know and won't speculate how they would shoot at 50 yards. It amazes me how few on here don't do any testing at 50 yards and speculate how good this or that load or bullet or this or that pistol shoots.
The way you wrote that, I thought you posted a photo of the target - if so, it doesn't show up on my screen.

25 yards, two-handed, standing, un-supported, and 6 shots in the X-ring in one hole.........     beautiful!!!!!   

Regarding the last thing you said, people here have said different things about shooting at 50 yards.  As for me, until I get better at 25, I don't see the point.  I do it anyway once in a while, and my group is usually double what it was at 25, maybe a little worse.  Mathematically, that makes sense to me.  

To be able to shoot like what you describe.....    wow!  Congratulations!!!!!  That is SO impressive!!!!!!
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Post by mikemyers on Sat Sep 21, 2019 8:39 pm

orpheoet wrote:I have to ask what does he consider good ammunition?
S&W told me they won't work on the 52 so I'm surprised you got anywhere with them. What did they say about it?
I asked him that as well.   His answer was his own reloads.  

S&W - I'm not the one who sent it in, the previous owner did, twice.  I know nothing of what they did or did not do, only that they never "fixed" it, as each time it was returned, it did the same things wrong.  I never asked him what S&W said about it.  Everyone at the club seemed to think it was un-fixable.  Except me, but even if I couldn't fix it, it would have been perfect for my intended purpose, to learn how to disassemble and re-assemble it.  If I wasn't so stubborn, I'd have given up, like everyone else did.
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Post by mikemyers on Sat Sep 21, 2019 8:41 pm

LenV wrote:Berry's didn't lie. They are the top of the line plated bullet. Putting them in direct competition with "Rainier" plated bullets. I've tried them both. I don't have any left that I didn't just blast away or pull. But they didn't lie. They just don't tell the whole story.

Len
If we've agreed, they're not "the best" for Bullseye.  In your experience, what are they good at?  

They're no longer on my "want list", but I'd like to understand what prompted Berry's to develop them.
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Post by james r chapman on Sat Sep 21, 2019 8:43 pm

mikemyers wrote:
BE Mike wrote:^^^^^^^THIS^^^^^^^^^ I shot an 8 round magazine full of Acme 200 gr. coated SWC .45 ACP rounds last Thursday with my iron sighted Springfield Armory Match Target. I used two hands, standing/ unsupported at 25 yards. They were shot on a 25 yard T&R center. 6 of the 8 shots were in one hole in the X and the other two were tens (my fault, I'm certain). I don't know and won't speculate how they would shoot at 50 yards. It amazes me how few on here don't do any testing at 50 yards and speculate how good this or that load or bullet or this or that pistol shoots.
The way you wrote that, I thought you posted a photo of the target - if so, it doesn't show up on my screen.

25 yards, two-handed, standing, un-supported, and 6 shots in the X-ring in one hole.........     beautiful!!!!!   

Regarding the last thing you said, people here have said different things about shooting at 50 yards.  As for me, until I get better at 25, I don't see the point.  I do it anyway once in a while, and my group is usually double what it was at 25, maybe a little worse.  Mathematically, that makes sense to me.  

To be able to shoot like what you describe.....    wow!  Congratulations!!!!!  That is SO impressive!!!!!!
Mike, apparently you are unaware ACME are not PLATED bullets, they are COATED bullets
A HUGE difference.

"Berry's Superior Plated Bullets® are the finest bonded copper-jacketed bullets available today....."  ?? - Page 2 A5a1c310
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Post by mikemyers on Sat Sep 21, 2019 8:51 pm

james r chapman wrote:Mike, apparently you are unaware ACME are not PLATED bullets, they are COATED bullets
A HUGE difference.
"unaware"......      you're being too kind.  I am totally, completely ignorant about "plated" and "coated".  

Not sure if I need to learn about this, and certainly not tonight, but I'll eventually do some reading about both.
From what I've been reading, none of this seems to be something desirable for Bullseye Shooting.
Thanks for what you posted - that's a start.
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Post by orpheoet on Sat Sep 21, 2019 9:03 pm

S&W told me a few years back when I bought my 52-2 that they had nobody left that knew the gun and more importantly no parts. I was told if sent in it would be simply returned without being looked at.
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Post by DA/SA on Sat Sep 21, 2019 9:25 pm

mikemyers wrote:From what I've been reading, none of this seems to be something desirable for Bullseye Shooting.

Don't underestimate Hi-Tek coated bullets!

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Post by mikemyers on Sat Sep 21, 2019 9:48 pm

These????
http://www.acmebullet.com/bullets-reloading-brass/38-CAL-Lead-Cast-Bullets?product_id=550

I don't know enough to overestimate or underestimate.  I don't think these have a hollow base??

"Berry's Superior Plated Bullets® are the finest bonded copper-jacketed bullets available today....."  ?? - Page 2 C%20148%20WC%20DBB-230x230
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Post by LenV on Sat Sep 21, 2019 10:28 pm

mikemyers wrote:
LenV wrote:Berry's didn't lie. They are the top of the line plated bullet. Putting them in direct competition with "Rainier" plated bullets. I've tried them both. I don't have any left that I didn't just blast away or pull. But they didn't lie. They just don't tell the whole story.

Len
If we've agreed, they're not "the best" for Bullseye.  In your experience, what are they good at?  

They're no longer on my "want list", but I'd like to understand what prompted Berry's to develop them.
I was being cynical Mike. All their add really says is that they are the best junk bullet out there compared to the other junk bullets on the market. They build them to sell them cheap to the masses. They have a following in the no lead bullets allowed crowd. To reload you follow load instructions for lead, not jacketed bullets.

Len
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Post by mpolans on Sun Sep 22, 2019 12:12 am

mikemyers wrote:Frank looked at the lead in my Zero bullets, and told me in his opinion it was poor quality lead.  He also looked at my Federal ammo, and told me it was a lot better lead.  He looked at the Magtech ammo, and said it was somewhere in-between. 

I do remember having "lead issues with my barrel" from my reloads; you guys helped me get everything clean.  Back then I was using Bullseye, and I never did get it to look as good as what I'm now doing with 45 (probably because I was seating and crimping in the same station back then).

The Zero ammo seems to me to be more "dirty".  I don't know enough to really say one way or another, but the gun seems to get dirty faster than it does with Magtech and Federal, and I got the impression the smoke when I fired the Zero ammo was more than with the Federal or Magtech.  

My gun got very dirty very quickly when shooting half a box of Zero.  After shooting the same amount of Federal today, the gun still looks clean.


To be honest though, that's not what I was looking for today.  My question was whether the 52 would reliably fire round after round, which it didn't before Frank worked on it.  I had no problems.  

When I got home, I didn't take the gun apart for cleaning yet, but I did look at the barrel with a light - still looks clean.

(My own 52, not the one I've been working on, seems to fire anything, and never has an issue with purchased ammo.  It was my gun, shooting my reloads, that got the barrel all leaded up a couple of years ago.  That might have been because I was trying to avoid "shaving" lead as I reloaded, and now that I'll use separate stations for seating and crimping, if that was the reason for my problems, it won't happen again.)

Oh well, I could go on typing forever, but while I don't have the reason "why", it's obvious you guys don't think much of the jacketed ammo, so I'll forget about it.   Thanks!

Your buddy Frank was probably more into USPSA/IPSC and IDPA pistol disciplines.  The accuracy requirements in those disciplines is very different from bullseye (especially these days).  Those disciplines typically have most targets placed between 5-25 yards, and have a highest scoring area ("A-zone") that is about 4"x8".  They also typically have a minimum "power factor" their ammunition has to meet (bullet weight in grains x velocity/1000 = "power factor"), which typically means their bullets are being driven faster.  Because of this, they prefer much harder cast lead (for reduced leading at high velocities) or plated (less leading, but greater deformation compared to jacketed).  
Bullseye shooters shoot at lower velocities and typically want softer lead bullets, with many even using swaged bullets for best accuracy.

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Post by mikemyers on Sun Sep 22, 2019 6:34 am

mpolans wrote:.........Frank was probably more into USPSA/IPSC and IDPA pistol disciplines.  The accuracy requirements in those disciplines is very different from bullseye (especially these days).  Those disciplines typically have most targets placed between 5-25 yards, and have a highest scoring area ("A-zone") that is about 4"x8".  They also typically have a minimum "power factor" their ammunition has to meet (bullet weight in grains x velocity/1000 = "power factor"), which typically means their bullets are being driven faster.  Because of this, they prefer much harder cast lead (for reduced leading at high velocities) or plated (less leading, but greater deformation compared to jacketed).......
You are right, I remember him talking about IPSC, and that's what he competed in.  As I recall, the shooter would take two quick shots at a time.  

(I've never looked into that type of shooting - I think it's what I get to see on TV and YouTube, where people move around quickly shooting many different targets multiple times......  I've never tried it, and I doubt I ever will.  Lots of people seem to enjoy it, but I don't move so fast any more.....    Yep, IPSC.  One more thing on my list of things to eventually read about.)


In my mind, I can't "buy" better scores.  I could buy a brand new Accuracy-X 45, that can shoot out a candle at 1,000 yards, but I'm convinced my targets would look just like the targets I'm shooting now.  That's out - better scores for me need to come from learning what to do, and then training myself to be able to do better.  As far as I'm concerned, if my gunsmith can simply make my gun work properly, smoothly, a good trigger, and decent sights, that's more than enough for me to work with for now.  I've shot other people's guns, and for the most part, I shoot them like I shoot my own guns, providing the weight of the gun is comparable.  

(It's like with my past hobby, Radio Control Car Racing, where a skilled racer can take a "junk" racing car and run circles around other racers who simply buy the best car that money can buy.  It all comes down to skill, and training, and practice.)
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Post by DA/SA on Sun Sep 22, 2019 7:24 am

mikemyers wrote:These????
http://www.acmebullet.com/bullets-reloading-brass/38-CAL-Lead-Cast-Bullets?product_id=550

I don't know enough to overestimate or underestimate.  I don't think these have a hollow base??

"Berry's Superior Plated Bullets® are the finest bonded copper-jacketed bullets available today....."  ?? - Page 2 C%20148%20WC%20DBB-230x230

My mistake, as I was just making a general statement about coated bullets.

In your case though, for your 52, I doubt you will fine anything that shoots better than a lead HBWC. I'm not aware of any Hi-Tek coated HBWC's, but wouldn't be afraid to try them if they were.

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Post by B-Bull on Mon Oct 07, 2019 4:48 pm

I'm glad the gunsmith was able to get the gun working for you. When I lived in the area, I had difficulty finding a good local smith for any purpose.

Plated bullets are a cheaper alternative to jacketed bullets, and are probably "good" for some things, accuracy however isn't something I've ever gotten from them.

Berry's and (most or maybe all) other brands of plated bullets are essentially die struck (swaged) bullets that are made undersized, and then plated up to the desired diameter. I believe Berry's restrikes (reswages) their bullets after the plating process to give a polished appearance and ensure uniform diameter.

The process is cheaper (and generally quicker) from a manufacturing standpoint than making jacketed bullets, and for folks who need bullets without exposed lead for indoor ranges or things like that, and aren't worried about accuracy too much, they probably make sense, but they don't obturate (expand on firing) the way a soft lead bullet will because the low pressures of bullseye type loads cant overcome the added hardness that the copper plating adds to the bullets.

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Post by Jack H on Tue Oct 08, 2019 1:29 am

So many people want to jump to X ring ammo at the neglect of X ring performance in the hand and mind.
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Post by mikemyers on Tue Oct 08, 2019 1:11 pm

Jack H wrote:So many people want to jump to X ring ammo at the neglect of X ring performance in the hand and mind.

Gee, that applies to so many things....

"So many people want to jump to X ring _____________ at the neglect of X ring performance in the hand and mind.

Fill in the blank, ammo, gun, sights, whatever.  
So easy to do, just spend $$$$$$.

I'm sort of guilty about this myself, but only to a point.  As far as I know, it's not possible to "buy performance".  That has to be earned.  
Still, good equipment + average performance is better than "poor equipment + average performance".
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Post by Aprilian on Tue Oct 08, 2019 2:56 pm

delete duplicate


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Post by Aprilian on Tue Oct 08, 2019 2:57 pm

mikemyers wrote:As far as I know, it's not possible to "buy performance".  That has to be earned.  

coming to a bullseye pistolsmith soon?
https://www.mysanantonio.com/news/us-world/article/American-Sniper-widow-Taya-Kyle-wins-shooting-6686394.php
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Post by adminbot1911 on Tue Oct 08, 2019 3:13 pm

Aprilian wrote:
mikemyers wrote:As far as I know, it's not possible to "buy performance".  That has to be earned.  

coming to a bullseye pistolsmith soon?
https://www.mysanantonio.com/news/us-world/article/American-Sniper-widow-Taya-Kyle-wins-shooting-6686394.php
Unlikely.

https://www.theverge.com/2015/6/11/8764611/tracking-point-rifle-company

The concept my live elsewhere, but the company seemed to have its issues.
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Post by mikemyers on Tue Oct 08, 2019 3:27 pm

I wonder if they have a kit for my guns?    :-)
https://www.tracking-point.com/technology/how-it-works/
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Post by Allen Barnett on Tue Oct 08, 2019 5:59 pm

I once did try them simply to reduce lead exposure but found that exactly what many other the others are saying.  To put it bluntly they suck!!!  I found that when I measured them with a micrometer they measured anywhere from 0.451" up to 0.455".  Weight varied as much as 5 grains plus and minus their listed weight of 185 grains.  Not all bullets are what they say they are.  But in the case of these bullets stay away from them, far far away!


Last edited by Allen Barnett on Tue Oct 08, 2019 6:00 pm; edited 1 time in total (Reason for editing : spelling correction)

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Post by dronning on Tue Oct 08, 2019 6:57 pm

Jack H wrote:So many people want to jump to X ring ammo at the neglect of X ring performance in the hand and mind.
How are you going to know if you have X ring performance in hand or mind if your gun and/or ammo aren't capable??

4" ammo + a 4" gun makes for a lot of frustration.
- Dave
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