Need 825 fps load for 38 spl 148gr HBWC

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Need 825 fps load for 38 spl 148gr HBWC Empty Need 825 fps load for 38 spl 148gr HBWC

Post by Upper40 on Fri Sep 20, 2019 7:32 pm

Looking for a 120,000 power factor load using a 38 spl 148gr hollow base wadcutter bullet.  825 fps X 148 gr = 122,100

Anyone have a good load combination (50 yard accuracy) loading the 148 Gr HBWC to around 825 fps?

Thanks.

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Post by oldsalt444 on Fri Sep 20, 2019 8:47 pm

Major ammo makers push their 148 gr. HBWC match loads to around 710 FPS.  There's a good reason - accuracy.  My concern with pushing an HBWC to 825 FPS would be the chance of blowing off the skirt of the bullet and having multiple holes in your target.  I've seen it happen more than once.  Bullseye shooters like to keep the velocities around the same as those factory loads.  We're after accuracy, not power factor. 

That being said, there's no reason you couldn't push a solid wadcutter like a double-ended or button nose to 825.  The Lyman Cast Bullet Handbook lists their #358091 bullet (150 gr. button nose WC) over 3.1 gr. Titegroup @ 854 FPS, 3.1 gr. Bullseye @ 837 FPS, and 3.7 gr. 231 @ 872 FPS.  These are starting loads and might yield acceptable accuracy for your purposes.  Good luck in your endeavors!
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Post by JIMPGOV on Fri Sep 20, 2019 8:56 pm

I WOULD ALSO LIKE TO SUGGEST THAT YOU USE THE REMINGTON 148GR HBWC BULLET. THEY HAVE THE THICKEST SKIRT. JP

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Post by Wobbley on Fri Sep 20, 2019 11:52 pm

Nothing specific and I don’t recommend anything more than 2.9 of Bullseye, but Alliant still considers this data valid.

http://www.castpics.net/LoadData/Freebies/RM/Alliant/Hercules_1987.pdf

Note that the absolute max is 3.1 BE giving 875, but that would be with a solid DEWC. So 2.9 should be very close.
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Post by Upper40 on Sat Sep 21, 2019 7:12 am

Thanks all for the input, I made a separate post looking for a source for Remington 148 HBWC...seems Midway no longer has them.

Been reading that there are pros and cons related to copper plated bullets. Some say the plating reduces leading some say not.  Berry's Bullets has a HBWC as well as a DEWC...anyone have (accuracy) experience with either?

Link:

https://www.berrysmfg.com/product/bp-38-357-148gr-hbwc

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Post by Allgoodhits on Sat Sep 21, 2019 3:36 pm

Upper40 wrote:Looking for a 120,000 power factor load using a 38 spl 148gr hollow base wadcutter bullet.  825 fps X 148 gr = 122,100

Anyone have a good load combination (50 yard accuracy) loading the 148 Gr HBWC to around 825 fps?

Thanks.

I used 148 gr HBWC for years at Bianchi.
3.5 +/- gr W231 should get you to the 820-850 fps range
3.3 +/- gr WST should do the same
2.9 +/- gr Clays should put in the park

Good results with ZERO, Hornady and Speer HBWC. Keep them under 840 fps. I have used some cast DEWC up to 880 fps with good accuracy, but there is no reason to have to run them that fast, if you can get an accurate load with other 148's in the 825 - 840 range. Minimum PF is about 811 fps. You need a margin, especially at Bianchi and some Regionals.

The Bayou 138 gr BNWC with 3.8 +/- WST is a great Bianchi WC load too. I likes to run in the upper 800's.

I have shot a many 1900+ matches with WC in .38 spl. PB 1918 with WCs.

I might add that Bayou and Brazos make excellent 120 -125 gr Hi Tek Coated bullets, when driven to about 1020 fps are very accurate and great for NRA AP. I would try about 4.3 - 4.6 gr WST for those. If W231, then maybe 4.4 - 4.9 gr. Clays, 4.0 - 4.3gr. All assumes a good K frame or stronger gun and 6" barrel.  If these don't work, drop back to 148gr WC or go to L frame. K frame barrels will crack (6 oclock at forcing cone) if pushed too much.  

FYI, the 1,000 fps range bullets work slightly better on the mover with 25 yd lead calculated at 9" puts on the target edge. Anything slower, has you "holding in air" ahead of the target at 25yds. Turning targets at NRA AP matches turn very fast. A Faster bullet may make the difference of "some score value" or a miss at 50 yds.


Of course, if L frame or stronger. then 110, 115 or 125 gr JHP are an option. Most would run the 125's.


Last edited by Allgoodhits on Sat Sep 21, 2019 3:50 pm; edited 1 time in total
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Post by oldsalt444 on Sat Sep 21, 2019 3:49 pm

The Remington HBWC is not available anymore, much to our dismay.  If you want an accurate 50 yard load, then for God's sake DON'T use a plated bullet.  In spite of what you may have heard, their accuracy is terrible, but might be OK up to 10-15 yards.  We gave up on plated bullets a long time ago.  They just don't give you any substantial accuracy, period. 

That being said, I suggest you look at Bear Creek Supply.  Their bullets have a rosin/molybdenum coating that is quite durable and won't lead your barrel at any reasonable velocity.  I use their HBWC and can testify to their accuracy, which is pretty good.  Brazos Bullet Co. and Missouri Bullet Co. sell Hi-Tek coated bullets that also work very well.
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Post by Upper40 on Sat Sep 21, 2019 4:15 pm

Allgoodhits

You supplied me with the info I'm looking for, considering entering the 2020 Bianchi, last time I shot Bianchi was 25 years ago? Had a round not go off on the plates and finished with a 1910...very frustrating.  Haven't shot any competition in years but getting the urge.  Was shooting a Manurhrin 9mm revolver at 1250 fps...but the gun finally developed cracks near the cylinder hand slot and side cover. Don't know what to do with it...can't contact Manurhin...and it could shoot quarter size groups at 50 yards.

So with a PPC background I figure why not give the old 148 HBWC another look and tone the velocity down.  There are now options for the "mover" with sight base adjustable leads and red dot scopes with internal leads, so a slower bullet might work for me.

Thanks again...you got me thinking.

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Post by Allgoodhits on Sat Sep 21, 2019 4:25 pm

Upper40 wrote:Allgoodhits

You supplied me with the info I'm looking for, considering entering the 2020 Bianchi, last time I shot Bianchi was 25 years ago? Had a round not go off on the plates and finished with a 1910...very frustrating.  Haven't shot any competition in years but getting the urge.  Was shooting a Manurhrin 9mm revolver at 1250 fps...but the gun finally developed cracks near the cylinder hand slot and side cover. Don't know what to do with it...can't contact Manurhin...and it could shoot quarter size groups at 50 yards.

So with a PPC background I figure why not give the old 148 HBWC another look and tone the velocity down.  There are now options for the "mover" with sight base adjustable leads and red dot scopes with internal leads, so a slower bullet might work for me.

Thanks again...you got me thinking.

Hey, the first 1920- ever fired at Bianchi (Doug Koenig) was done with a revolver. I think the most recent revolver winner was John Pride in mid 90's. Since then, most have gravitated to bottom feeders.

I am well aware of the mover bases and scopes. In fact, after forgetting to reset the mover lead on my old Leopold-Gilmore Red Leader 3 scope, one year after a pass, I set out to invent, design, manufacture and sell the MJ Custom Reticle for the then Bushnell HOLOsight 400. I have shot may clean events with that combo, including a 1920 in a match. Unfortunately, Bushnell (EOTech) stopped making the 400 series. It was simple, it worked, no adjustments to scope once zeroed. Was also good on the former D-1 target as it helped locate target center. Now, the target is the AP-1 with 4" black dot X ring.  When I shoot NRA AP with open gun, I still use my reticle, and the Bushnell 400 series HOLOsight.

I have also worked with Andrew at Precision Target Pistol Grips to make NRA AP specific grips for both 1911's and S&W revos. He understands, better what is needed now. I remember a guy shooting a revolver that was a semi-automatic revolver. My recall is that he shot 50 yds sitting, as opposed to standing or prone. Was that you?

Do we know each other? Martin Johnson here.
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Post by Upper40 on Sat Sep 21, 2019 6:49 pm

Allgoodhits wrote:
Upper40 wrote:Allgoodhits

You supplied me with the info I'm looking for, considering entering the 2020 Bianchi, last time I shot Bianchi was 25 years ago? Had a round not go off on the plates and finished with a 1910...very frustrating.  Haven't shot any competition in years but getting the urge.  Was shooting a Manurhrin 9mm revolver at 1250 fps...but the gun finally developed cracks near the cylinder hand slot and side cover. Don't know what to do with it...can't contact Manurhin...and it could shoot quarter size groups at 50 yards.

So with a PPC background I figure why not give the old 148 HBWC another look and tone the velocity down.  There are now options for the "mover" with sight base adjustable leads and red dot scopes with internal leads, so a slower bullet might work for me.

Thanks again...you got me thinking.

Hey, the first 1920- ever fired at Bianchi (Doug Koenig) was done with a revolver. I think the most recent revolver winner was John Pride in mid 90's. Since then, most have gravitated to bottom feeders.

I am well aware of the mover bases and scopes. In fact, after forgetting to reset the mover lead on my old Leopold-Gilmore Red Leader 3 scope, one year after a pass, I set out to invent, design, manufacture and sell the MJ Custom Reticle for the then Bushnell HOLOsight 400. I have shot may clean events with that combo, including a 1920 in a match. Unfortunately, Bushnell (EOTech) stopped making the 400 series. It was simple, it worked, no adjustments to scope once zeroed. Was also good on the former D-1 target as it helped locate target center. Now, the target is the AP-1 with 4" black dot X ring.  When I shoot NRA AP with open gun, I still use my reticle, and the Bushnell 400 series HOLOsight.

I have also worked with Andrew at Precision Target Pistol Grips to make NRA AP specific grips for both 1911's and S&W revos. He understands, better what is needed now.  I remember a guy shooting a revolver that was a semi-automatic revolver. My recall is that he shot 50 yds sitting, as opposed to standing or prone. Was that you?

Do we know each other? Martin Johnson here.
My first year at Bianchi I built a model 10 on my kitchen table and shot the open Barricade record at that time 480X46 but did terrible on the mover because I had no way to practice.  The next year I shot the Manurhin revolver, built a mover to practice, shot another open Barricade record at 480X47, cleaned the Practical and mover but had the misfire on the plates. While firing the 480X47 Barricade event I kept telling the range office that the targets looked funny...he said to just keep shooting. The targets were put on backwards on the last two stages...after scoring they asked if I wanted a re-shoot...nope not with a national record! Not sure what will happen with the new black center circle target, always shot better when aiming center mass.

My last 1920 was at the Eastern Regional NRA Action Championship in Vermont (Caspian Classic) won that one and a couple NY action pistol championships.

Looking for a bench top milling machine right now...have an idea for a compact moving target base.  Have made AR parts to make them manual loaders and for a little bit made AR "rifle grips":  www.RifleGrip.com

Gilmore still makes the red dot "mover scope" as a special order ($450)...not sure what I'm doing yet...

Not sure if I know you...my name is Ed


Last edited by Upper40 on Sun Sep 22, 2019 8:08 pm; edited 1 time in total

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Post by Allgoodhits on Sat Sep 21, 2019 7:58 pm

Upper40 wrote:
Allgoodhits wrote:
Upper40 wrote:Allgoodhits

You supplied me with the info I'm looking for, considering entering the 2020 Bianchi, last time I shot Bianchi was 25 years ago? Had a round not go off on the plates and finished with a 1910...very frustrating.  Haven't shot any competition in years but getting the urge.  Was shooting a Manurhrin 9mm revolver at 1250 fps...but the gun finally developed cracks near the cylinder hand slot and side cover. Don't know what to do with it...can't contact Manurhin...and it could shoot quarter size groups at 50 yards.

So with a PPC background I figure why not give the old 148 HBWC another look and tone the velocity down.  There are now options for the "mover" with sight base adjustable leads and red dot scopes with internal leads, so a slower bullet might work for me.

Thanks again...you got me thinking.

Hey, the first 1920- ever fired at Bianchi (Doug Koenig) was done with a revolver. I think the most recent revolver winner was John Pride in mid 90's. Since then, most have gravitated to bottom feeders.

I am well aware of the mover bases and scopes. In fact, after forgetting to reset the mover lead on my old Leopold-Gilmore Red Leader 3 scope, one year after a pass, I set out to invent, design, manufacture and sell the MJ Custom Reticle for the then Bushnell HOLOsight 400. I have shot may clean events with that combo, including a 1920 in a match. Unfortunately, Bushnell (EOTech) stopped making the 400 series. It was simple, it worked, no adjustments to scope once zeroed. Was also good on the former D-1 target as it helped locate target center. Now, the target is the AP-1 with 4" black dot X ring.  When I shoot NRA AP with open gun, I still use my reticle, and the Bushnell 400 series HOLOsight.

I have also worked with Andrew at Precision Target Pistol Grips to make NRA AP specific grips for both 1911's and S&W revos. He understands, better what is needed now.  I remember a guy shooting a revolver that was a semi-automatic revolver. My recall is that he shot 50 yds sitting, as opposed to standing or prone. Was that you?

Do we know each other? Martin Johnson here.
My first year at Bianchi I built a model 10 on my kitchen table and shot the open Barricade record at that time 480X46 but did terrible on the mover because I had no way to practice.  The next year I shot the Manurhin revolver, built a mover to practice, shot another open Barricade record at 480X47, cleaned the Practical and mover but had the misfire on the plates. While firing the 480X47 Barricade event I kept telling the range office that the targets looked funny...he said to just keep shooting. The targets were put on backwards on the last two stages...after scoring they asked if I wanted a re-shoot...nope not with a national record! Not sure what will happen with the new black center circle target, always shot better when aiming center mass.

My last 1920 was at the Eastern Regional NRA Action Championship in Vermont (Caspian Classic) won that one and a couple NY action pistol championships.

Looking for a bench top milling machine right now...have an idea for a compact moving target base.  Have made AR parts to make them manual loaders and for a little bit made AR "rifle grips":  www.RifleGrip.com

Gilmore still makes the red dot "mover scope" as a special order ($450)...not sure what I'm doing yet...

Not sure if I know you...my name is Ed Duda (retired Border Patrol)

Ed,

BP. My gosh, I remember the days of Tom Gaines, Charlie Pirtle, Jerry Jackson and of course now Rob Vadasz.

NY Regional. So you shot in Holland Patent, just north of Utica? Bill Judycki ran those matches a while back. There some guys who came from Connecticut and Vermont as well. Mark Mukon maybe, and Vito Buccolatto came up from LI. Of course Doug Koenig, Bruce Piatt and some others came there too. I'm in VA.

The old Gilmore Mover scopes were good. In the past 20 years or so, Doug is the only one has them that work reliably. Warren Moore at Protocol by Design makes the Stick Shift mover base. Probably the most popular one out there today. Ron Powers and others have had them. Stick Shift is probably the way to go.

Go get 'em.

Martin
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Post by Upper40 on Sat Sep 21, 2019 9:29 pm

The good ole days: Charlie Pirtle at the police (revolver) nationals with a crowd gathered while he told his border patrol stories.

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