Keeping Track of NRA Distinguished Revolver Points

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Post by adminbot1911 on 9/24/2019, 12:43 pm

First topic message reminder :

Does anyone know which website is correct going forward, the update at http://pistol-competition.nra.org/distinguished-revolver-program.aspx hasn't been updated since May 2018.

The update at https://competitions.nra.org/results-and-records/distinguished-program/ was updated October 2018 which is more recently but is still going on a year.
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Post by adminbot1911 on 10/3/2019, 2:17 pm

Wobbley wrote:Don’t forget that the CMP also has a rule that you have to get an eight  point or tempo point leg somewhere to “leg out”.  There were some guys who had over 30 points and still not out.  It pays to go to Perry.   But I also wish that there were more “Regional” big matches that we could attend.  Out here on the west coast there isn’t very much to choose from.

The bronze bombers! I'm not one of them but I know how they feel. 

Having done a lot of competing around the Bay area I know that west coast competition can be a challenge.  Fortunately here in Virginia there's 3 clubs within 90 minutes.  A couple more within 4 hours.  But I keep wishing there were more...  even though I max out my EIC matches halfway through the season.  Maybe I'm just hooked on the DR matches.  I feel so bummed that I have to loan people guns (and ammo) to shoot in these, even seasoned BE shooters.  These are among the most fun matches that I compete in.
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Post by LenV on 10/5/2019, 11:49 pm

The NRA is still behind on my points by at least a year. They are so far behind I don't know which points are missing. Possibly something from 2015 or maybe 16,17 or 18 but since they don't send an award letter there is no way of knowing. The CMP on the other hand are great. You may not get any points shooting in a match but if you win they at least send you a medal.  Laughing They just randomly show up in the mail. I wasn't expecting this one.

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Post by mprince on 10/6/2019, 7:49 pm

While I think a cutoff of 250 is a bit high for an EIC Pistol match that covers all weather conditions and situations, I do know the justification for having the rule in the first place.  I was involved in the complaints about certain match directors that lead up to the cutoff scores happening.  Here are some examples of why they were implemented.

In 2012, I was my states HighPower rifle champion, I think I might have the SR champion for a few years as well at that time.  I sent an unnamed match director an email that I was coming to his EIC match and asked what time to show up.  He responded in an email that they were cancelling the match and that they were not going to reschedule it.  Needless to say, I was a little pissed to find out that they held the match the next weekend.  It was one of those instances where they wanted local shooters to get legs and didn't want anybody to show up and take "their" legs.  Didn't matter that this was in my own state.

Another time, I had won the inaugural EIC Pistol match at a club local to me.  So the following year, the match director sent me an email asking what weekends I would be able to shoot in Jan/Feb.  Since I am TNARNG, I was free for any weekend other than the drill weekends.  So he proceeded to schedule the match specifically so that I could not come.   I know this because I confronted him over it and he admitted it.  He said that if I didn't like it, I could schedule my own matches.  What he was doing was setting up matches through the CMP, getting them approved and not announcing them anywhere so that him and his buddies would have a better chance of taking the legs.

I helped get the word out so that out of towners would start showing up and taking the legs, so he stopped running these matches.

I filed formal complaints in both these instances.  The gaming of the system to allow local shooters to take legs they didn't deserve is what led to the cutoff score.  Even though it has stopped the blatant match director gaming, it has had unintended consequences, such as what John was speaking of in his post. 

I don't know what the answer is, but I thought I would bring some background as to where the cutoff score originated.  Hope this helps explain the issue a little more.

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Post by chiz1180 on 10/7/2019, 7:39 am

Is 250 really too high for a cut off? That is averaging about 83 across the match, not too easy but definitively attainable. In the case of the .22 EIC's I have never seen one where points where given out at anything less than 270, does that make the 260 cut off too low? If you want to pursue Distinguished it is something that you will have to work for.

As far as playing they system that still happens, I have been at matches where shooters didn't turn in their score card so that they could shoot another match. A more positive method of playing the system, I have also been at matches where shooters have brought loaner guns and ammo for non-distinguished shooters to participate, borrowing guns is what allowed me to shoot DR matches this year.

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Post by adminbot1911 on 10/7/2019, 8:20 am

250 is not too high, but STATISTICALLY the cutoff could be higher for .22EIC and lower for SP EIC.  Higher for SR too.  Which is why I thought they should have changed equipment and ammo rules and then studied scores and then set the cutoffs.  Which would have helped with gaming as originally intended.

Not turning in your scorecard to game the system should be a bannable offense, cut and dry.  It is literally selfishly giving yourself another shot at points while potentially screwing multiple other competitors out of legs they earned (first because of lack of non-distinguished competitors and second because you beat out another competitor in a match you weren't qualified for).  It is dishonest and not in the spirit of competition.  

I'm all about loaning equipment and ammo to other competitors, especially DR.  At a Maryland match I let one of the USMC pistol team shooters use my 686 while I shot my Ruger.  Turned out he was the only one to beat me that day.  Was it worth it?  For the profuse thanks he gave for enabling him to shoot his first DR match, hell yes.
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Post by chiz1180 on 10/7/2019, 10:16 am

Not turning in your scorecard to game the system should be a bannable offense, cut and dry.  It is literally selfishly giving yourself another shot at points while potentially screwing multiple other competitors out of legs they earned (first because of lack of non-distinguished competitors and second because you beat out another competitor in a match you weren't qualified for).  It is dishonest and not in the spirit of competition.  

While I don't disagree, it is not enforceable and in some cases it COULD be an honest error, end of a long day wanting to pack up and head home, stuff happens. People will play the system both in positive ways and negative.

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Post by TonyH on 10/7/2019, 10:42 am

I attended a recent 22 EIC match where the MD was not enforcing the ready position rule (45 degree angle). A very few of the competitors that did follow the rule were at a distinct disadvantage, as shots were going downrange even as those folks were in the "lift" process. I verbally reminded the gentleman running the line of the rule. He did make a half hearted attempt to rectify the situation by making the announcement, but did not re-run the timed fire line. On the rapid fire line the rule was once again not enforced. I again filed a verbal protest but no penalties were enforced on the folks that did not comply, nor was the line re-fired.
Once I returned home and actually looked at the rules in detail, I should have followed the protest process detailed there but did not. I then did call the MD and asked that the entire match be nuliified and re-run on another date if possible. I was told that due to range availability, the match would stand and the scorecards sent in. I then asked that my scorecard not be submitted as the rules were not applied equally to all competitors (I finished second in that bronze leg match, following the rules). At the distances we may have to drive and the fees charged for these events, was that the wrong thing to do? Not to mention the 5 match annual limit....
Next time that happens (and hopefully it will not), I will follow the official protest process now that I am better versed on it.
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Post by Wobbley on 10/7/2019, 10:46 am

There are people who pick and choose which leg matches to shoot because of historical low leg cutoffs.  Kind of a “cupcake munch”!  Not really dishonest, but not in the true spirit either. These cutoff scores to even qualify make it better IMO. Whether they’re too high is arguable, but as Mr Mason said to Mr Dixon, “We have to draw the line somewhere”.
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Post by adminbot1911 on 10/7/2019, 11:59 am

chiz1180 wrote:
Not turning in your scorecard to game the system should be a bannable offense, cut and dry.  It is literally selfishly giving yourself another shot at points while potentially screwing multiple other competitors out of legs they earned (first because of lack of non-distinguished competitors and second because you beat out another competitor in a match you weren't qualified for).  It is dishonest and not in the spirit of competition.  

While I don't disagree, it is not enforceable and in some cases it COULD be an honest error, end of a long day wanting to pack up and head home, stuff happens. People will play the system both in positive ways and negative.

You're right, of course.  It isn't enforceable and banning cheaters is mostly just wishful thinking on my part.  But it is lousy.  And the bevy of stories that we all have from our own experiences indicates more could be done.  But we don't want the pendulum to swing too far the other way either.
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Post by Jon Eulette on 10/7/2019, 12:10 pm

I just checked my points.....showing zero points. I have 18 and have mailed match results to the NRA. They suck Smile
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Post by adminbot1911 on 10/7/2019, 12:37 pm

Wobbley wrote:There are people who pick and choose which leg matches to shoot because of historical low leg cutoffs.  Kind of a “cupcake munch”!  Not really dishonest, but not in the true spirit either.  These cutoff scores to even qualify make it better IMO.  Whether they’re too high is arguable, but as Mr Mason said to Mr Dixon, “We have to draw the line somewhere”.
I can see that.  The level of competition is different for every match, with the ebb and flow of better or worse shooters having good or bad days, ringers competing for legs today and going D tomorrow, weather and light conditions helping or hurting performance, and the volume of shooters determining the total number of legs available.  Absent any other control, there should be a minimum cut score - no question about it.  Folks shouldn't be legging out with 210s.  But 250 is a solid day for many - not lights out, as indicated earlier (80SF/87TF/83RF is a perfectly attainable score for most) - my only argument is that those scores should be data driven, not arbitrary numbers chosen because they came in multiples of 10.
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Post by adminbot1911 on 11/7/2019, 8:31 am

Update: It has been 380 days since the last update to the DR points list.  

https://competitions.nra.org/media/7579/2018distinguishedrevolvercontenderlist.pdf
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Post by TonyH on 11/7/2019, 8:36 am

adminbot1911 wrote:Update: It has been 380 days since the last update to the DR points list.  

https://competitions.nra.org/media/7579/2018distinguishedrevolvercontenderlist.pdf
Well ya! What's your point?  Laughing
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Post by mprince on 11/7/2019, 8:24 pm

NRA never responded to my email.  It contained copies of their official results from 3 years if Camp Perry 10 point legs, downloaded straight from their server.  I really would just like someone at NRA to acknowledge the email and say "yes, we will be sending you a badge" as opposed to being ignored.

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Post by TonyH on 11/7/2019, 8:57 pm

mprince wrote:NRA never responded to my email.  It contained copies of their official results from 3 years if Camp Perry 10 point legs, downloaded straight from their server.  I really would just like someone at NRA to acknowledge the email and say "yes, we will be sending you a badge" as opposed to being ignored.
Call them and talk to Beth Martin....she did a tally on my point total and called me back the next day acknowledging that I had the award coming. Now when that will happen is anyone’s guess.....no updates on the website either as the posts above state.
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