Raising the gun to shoot

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Post by mikemyers on 10/7/2019, 7:50 pm

Quick question.  I got into the habit of raising the gun above a target, getting the dot centered in the sight, and lowering the aligned gun onto the target.  A friend of mine gave me his class notes from a Zins clinic, with this note: "Raise the gun to 11 o’clock, not 12 o’clock because that is where the gun recoils. 



My understanding from this is that you first raise your gun to the same position it goes after taking a shot, and from there, move it onto the bull.  That makes a fluid motion that you do the same for all your shots, including the first.

I have been doing it my way because it allows me to first get the dot centered in the sight, then lower the gun/sight/dot so the dot is over the bull.  Doing both functions at once was difficult for me centering the dot in the sight, while also centering the dot/sight over the target wasn't comfortable.  I guess it would be more efficient to raise the gun to where it naturally goes after shooting, and while doing this find the dot....

(I think that eventually, "muscle memory" will do all of this automatically, eventually, as your subconscious moves the appropriate body parts.)

For me, I'm doing better at positioning the gun so the dot is right where it belongs.  Maybe in 10,000 more shots it will all happen automatically.  Fortunately, this is something I can, and do, practice in dry-fire.

...........and I don't understand why Brian said to raise the gun too 11:00 anyway. Sounds too high, but what do I know.
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Post by james r chapman on 10/7/2019, 9:04 pm

Sometimes it pays to just watch the High Masters shoot.

Some, bring the gun to the top of the frame, lower to below the target, breath then rise to center and the gun goes of.

as even Brian says, it's not the same for everyone.
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Post by dronning on 10/7/2019, 10:48 pm

I am looking for the source (I save everything) there is a muscular advantage to lowering the pistol into the bull verses raising to it.  I believe it had to do with fine motor/muscle control.  It probably doesn't matter either way if you are a young AMU shooter.
- Dave
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Post by Sa-tevp on 10/8/2019, 4:45 am

dronning wrote:I am looking for the source (I save everything) there is a muscular advantage to lowering the pistol into the bull verses raising to it.  I believe it had to do with fine motor/muscle control.  It probably doesn't matter either way if you are a young AMU shooter.
- Dave

The subject is covered in the MEC book Pistol Shooting:The Olympic Disciplines but I don't know where the concept came from. It was recommended for air pistol and free pistol. Probably the idea come from coaches on either side of the Iron Curtain.

Raising the gun to shoot 411_LG

Edit - The rationale was that raising to the aiming area led to more horizontal movement while aiming. Lowering had less muscles being used.
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Post by adminbot1911 on 10/8/2019, 7:09 am

mikemyers wrote:Quick question.  I got into the habit of raising the gun above a target, getting the dot centered in the sight, and lowering the aligned gun onto the target.  A friend of mine gave me his class notes from a Zins clinic, with this note: "Raise the gun to 11 o’clock, not 12 o’clock because that is where the gun recoils. 



My understanding from this is that you first raise your gun to the same position it goes after taking a shot, and from there, move it onto the bull.  That makes a fluid motion that you do the same for all your shots, including the first.

I have been doing it my way because it allows me to first get the dot centered in the sight, then lower the gun/sight/dot so the dot is over the bull.  Doing both functions at once was difficult for me centering the dot in the sight, while also centering the dot/sight over the target wasn't comfortable.  I guess it would be more efficient to raise the gun to where it naturally goes after shooting, and while doing this find the dot....

(I think that eventually, "muscle memory" will do all of this automatically, eventually, as your subconscious moves the appropriate body parts.)

For me, I'm doing better at positioning the gun so the dot is right where it belongs.  Maybe in 10,000 more shots it will all happen automatically.  Fortunately, this is something I can, and do, practice in dry-fire.

...........and I don't understand why Brian said to raise the gun too 11:00 anyway. Sounds too high, but what do I know.

I just realized that "raise the gun to 11 o'clock" could be taken two different ways.  Doesn't your 1911 twist up and to the left during recoil?  That's what he trying to simulate.  You're not pointing the gun 30 degrees from vertical.

I evolved from bringing straight up to bringing straight down into the bull over time.  Bringing down at 11 o'clock... interesting idea.  I'll try it but I can't promise I'll like it.
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Post by james r chapman on 10/8/2019, 8:06 am

11 would seem to block the bull for RH shooters.
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Post by adminbot1911 on 10/8/2019, 9:07 am

james r chapman wrote:11 would seem to block the bull for RH shooters.
Doesn't 12 also?
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Post by james r chapman on 10/8/2019, 9:09 am

Yes, a reason for raising
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Post by mikemyers on 10/8/2019, 1:00 pm

james r chapman wrote:11 would seem to block the bull for RH shooters.
That brings us full circle.

Maybe I'm wrong about trying to understand Brian.  I was under the impression that he wants to start with the gun in the position it naturally goes to from recoil, then lower it and move to the right to get to the Bull.  Maybe there's a better way to describe why to do this?

At any rate, while raising it to the 11 position would block the bull for RH shooters, that's what recoil causes every time they take following shots.   I think that's what Brian means by starting that point at 11 o'clock.  For four of our shots, it's what we already have to do (timed and rapid), and maybe Brian is just trying to standardize this so it's true for all shots?



As for me, I know I've been raising the gun to a 12 o'clock position, while getting the dot centered, then lowering onto the target.  Nobody told or taught me to do that, it just felt natural.  I guess it's one more bad habit to break.
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Post by james r chapman on 10/8/2019, 1:14 pm

I don’t know, seems lowering you lose target reference, raising your target is alway in reference
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Post by mikemyers on 10/8/2019, 1:19 pm

ONLY IF I UNDERSTAND BRIAN CORRECTLY  ---->    What is more important, target reference on the first shot, or doing this only one way for all shots?
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Post by DA/SA on 10/8/2019, 1:31 pm

Shouldn't make any difference with a dot scope (tube type) unless you are starting pointing at the sky. I start at the upper edge of the repair center which leaves the aiming area still in the scope view..

Irons would obscure the target from above.

I lower with a dot and raise with irons for slow fire. Sight alignment first and then raise slightly into the aiming area.

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Post by james r chapman on 10/8/2019, 3:53 pm

DA/SA wrote:Shouldn't make any difference with a dot scope (tube type) unless you are starting pointing at the sky. I start at the upper edge of the repair center which leaves the aiming area still in the scope view..

Irons would obscure the target from above.

I lower with a dot and raise with irons for slow fire. Sight alignment first and then raise slightly into the aiming area.
that sounds promising.
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Post by Steve B on 10/8/2019, 7:37 pm

There's more to the story than what your friend wrote down from the clinic.
The method the marines taught and that Brian teaches is not to lower the gun to the target, by relaxing muscles.  Get your dot centered in the tube before picking the gun up.  Your hand, wrist, elbow and arm should be very firm if not locked, the shoulder should be the only muscle group moving.  As you're raising the pistol take a deep breath.  Once the dot is in the 11 o'clock position above the black center, and you've now firmed up the shoulder muscle with the rest of the arm, exhale slowly.  The gun will move into the center of the target.  There are many more details on what happens as the dot comes into the center... This is how Brian teaches.
I usually average mid 90s in slow fire, when I'm following the above process well...

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Post by dronning on 10/8/2019, 8:05 pm

Steve B wrote:There's more to the story than what your friend wrote down from the clinic.
The method the marines taught and that Brian teaches is not to lower the gun to the target, by relaxing muscles.  Get your dot centered in the tube before picking the gun up.  Your hand, wrist, elbow and arm should be very firm if not locked, the shoulder should be the only muscle group moving.  As you're raising the pistol take a deep breath.  Once the dot is in the 11 o'clock position above the black center, and you've now firmed up the shoulder muscle with the rest of the arm, exhale slowly.  The gun will move into the center of the target.  There are many more details on what happens as the dot comes into the center... This is how Brian teaches.
I usually average mid 90s in slow fire, when I'm following the above process well...
+1 Exactly how Brian taught our group.  I use a block on the bench so I can get the alignment.  When the command "ready on the right" is given I lift the gun off the bench. On "ready on the left" I inhale and raise the gun to the 11 o'clock position and pause.  I begin to exhale and lower on "ready on the firing line" and here is where I also start the trigger moving.  The target turns the dot moves into the center and the shot breaks.

I use the same method on each slow fire shot, I go through the commands in my head.  Also in slow fire if the guns returns perfectly I will take another shot.
- Dave


Last edited by dronning on 10/13/2019, 10:26 pm; edited 1 time in total
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Post by Allen Barnett on 10/8/2019, 9:49 pm

I have always lowered into the target from above.  This is how I did it when shooting international smallbore rifle in college.  The next time out for practice I am going to try the "Zins" method.  If it works for him it sure can't hurt my scores. LOL

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Post by adminbot1911 on 10/9/2019, 9:20 am

Allen Barnett wrote:I have always lowered into the target from above.  This is how I did it when shooting international smallbore rifle in college.  The next time out for practice I am going to try the "Zins" method.  If it works for him it sure can't hurt my scores. LOL
Lowering is really the only way to physically shoot offhand if the buttstock is seated as it should be for precision rifle (not action, totally different mechanics).  You can twist into your target too, but lowering comes first.
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Post by Wobbley on 10/9/2019, 10:16 am

adminbot1911 wrote:
Allen Barnett wrote:I have always lowered into the target from above.  This is how I did it when shooting international smallbore rifle in college.  The next time out for practice I am going to try the "Zins" method.  If it works for him it sure can't hurt my scores. LOL
Lowering is really the only way to physically shoot offhand if the buttstock is seated as it should be for precision rifle (not action, totally different mechanics).  You can twist into your target too, but lowering comes first.

In rifle shooting with the “back bend and body twist” position, you cannot get the required bend without lowering the rifle to the aimpoint.
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Post by adminbot1911 on 10/9/2019, 12:58 pm

Wobbley wrote:
adminbot1911 wrote:
Allen Barnett wrote:I have always lowered into the target from above.  This is how I did it when shooting international smallbore rifle in college.  The next time out for practice I am going to try the "Zins" method.  If it works for him it sure can't hurt my scores. LOL
Lowering is really the only way to physically shoot offhand if the buttstock is seated as it should be for precision rifle (not action, totally different mechanics).  You can twist into your target too, but lowering comes first.

In rifle shooting with the “back bend and body twist” position, you cannot get the required bend without lowering the rifle to the aimpoint.  

Exactly!

One question though.  Does one wobble before lowering, after lowering, or the whole time?  Wink
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Post by Wobbley on 10/9/2019, 3:01 pm

The movement while lowering masks the wobble. But I also find that the body tends to “unwind” from the twist so there’s a slow drift to the right. Therefore I st the NPA just to the right of the X. Then as the hold drifts into the 10 from the left I break the shot. “Take the FIRST 10 you see.
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Post by 45ACP223 on 10/13/2019, 9:36 pm

Wow, the Zin method is interesting.   I'll have to give it a try tomorrow.   I've always been told to start at 12 o'clock and move down on the exhale.   Never too old to learn something new!
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Post by DJKWImark3 on 10/15/2019, 1:01 pm

Look up Zin's video on How to Improve Pistol Red Dot Aiming. Scroll to the 6:15 or so minute mark and see where he initially holds his laser dot. It is hard to see the white laser dot on the target but its there at 11 :O'clock before he lowers it to the black..
  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fUejbCKV6wQ

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