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timed fire strings Empty timed fire strings

Post by robvasi on 10/10/2019, 6:51 am

This is the rule for timed fire:



The lower bull on each target pair will then be shot with two (2) five shot strings, with each string being shot at the more rapid timed pace of 20 seconds per string. There will be a reloading break between the two strings.


This is my question:



Is it a disqualification if six shots are fired in the first string and and four in the second string? 

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Post by STEVE SAMELAK on 10/10/2019, 7:55 am

If you're only supposed to load (5) rounds....how did you get six without trying to game the system?
are you sure one shot from the second string didn't go that far wild?

If it was a bad shot I'd treat it as a cross fire on your own target set
If you loaded a magazine with six & fired six I'd say too bad and at leas give you a zero for that string.

Dumb question tho......why two targets hung at once, seams like a baad plan to me.
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Post by David R on 10/10/2019, 8:10 am

Anywhere I have shot, the command is "With 5 rounds load"
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Post by PhotoEscape on 10/10/2019, 9:28 am

I can understand how it might happen on second 5 round string, and OP question should be modified for this condition. I.e. one shot 4 rounds on the first string, and one round is sitting in the chamber. With that "with 5 rounds load" isn't violated.

Opinions?

AP
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Post by STEVE SAMELAK on 10/10/2019, 10:26 am

You are responsible for the state of your firearm
Should you verify it's condition after every string?  I think so.
Did you fire what you THOUGHT was five shots & not verify it?   If not BAD KITTY no points for you!
The command is "with 5 rounds load", not with 5 more rounds load.

JMO  hoping guns are not loaded when they should not be
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Post by Allen Barnett on 10/10/2019, 12:20 pm

I would think that if more than 5 rounds are fired in one string or the other of either the timed fire or rapid fire matches that at a minimum it nullify the scoring of the match in which the action occured.  Not knowing the exact situation in which this occured it is quite possible that Rule 9.29 (Evasion of Rules) could come into play.  Which could lead the disqualification under Rule 9.30.  Disqualification in my opinion would be based on the intent of the shooter.  Was this done in the first or secound string of fire?  If it was the first string of fire I could see a new shooter loading an "extra" round by mistake and shooting until the firearm is empty.  If it was the second string of fire I could see where the shooter knew there were only 4 hits on the first string and no visible miss was present.  In this case I would see this to be an intent to evade the rules and should lead to disqualification.  My response is based purely on speculation.  More information of the exact situation is really needed.

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Post by WesG on 10/10/2019, 1:04 pm

My opinion, loading another 5 rd mag with a rd in the chamber sounds like a safety violation. Granted, it's not exactly the same thing as a 'hot reload' in a RF string with a rifle, which is grounds for a zero. But you are fiddling with a loaded gun during what is essentially a cease fire period.

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Post by STEVE SAMELAK on 10/10/2019, 1:12 pm

also....if you fired 4 and stopped thinking you shot five, you should have wondered why the slide was forward and when you loaded the second five (with the slide forward) I would you'd rack the slide to load the first round of the second mag; ejecting the round not fired in the first string.

to shoot four then six you have to be either careless of cheating, both situations causes for concern.
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Post by CR10X on 10/10/2019, 2:03 pm

Surprised nobody mentioned that the OP's "rule" is not from the NRA rules.  

Check out the actual rule book.  Read it.

7. COURSES OF FIRE - gives the Time per 5 Shot String for various courses of fire.

8.1 Computing Time - ....Time is not checked on each individual shot but is computed on the indicated allowance for each five-shot string depending on the type of fire being conducted, except slow fire may be fired in 10-shot strings.

9.25 Cross Fires and Excessive Hits - No competitor will deliberately fire on the wrong target nor fire more than the required number of shots, including hits on some other competitor’s target and misses. (My comment - that includes the number of shots per string or per target)

10.7 Firing Line Procedures and Commands - .....The Range Officer having made sure that the range is clear (in timed and rapid fire the targets must be turned out of firing position) then commands “WITH 5 ROUNDS LOAD.”

While not in the NRA suggested commands, some ranges will have the command between strings for timed and rapid fire matches scored after ten shots that includes;  "CEASE FIRE.  ARE THERE ANY ALIBIS OR SAVED ROUNDS?" This allows the identification determination of refires and saved rounds prior to the second string of fire.  This is probably a good suggestion for the rule book, I believe its used by rifle shooters on some ranges as well.

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Post by adminbot1911 on 10/10/2019, 2:23 pm

robvasi wrote:This is the rule for timed fire:



The lower bull on each target pair will then be shot with two (2) five shot strings, with each string being shot at the more rapid timed pace of 20 seconds per string. There will be a reloading break between the two strings.


This is my question:



Is it a disqualification if six shots are fired in the first string and and four in the second string? 

Let's unpack this, because we have a couple of possibilities.

Most frequently you may see a 4 shot string followed by a 6-shot string - a competitor saves a round, then tries to load a second magazine of 5 to get all 10 shots off.  It's not written into the CMP rule book anywhere how to deal with this.  There are only references to excess (more than 10) hits and general sportsmanship rules.  

The NRA rulebook is more specific about this situation though: 

9.25 Cross Fires and Excessive Hits - No competitor will deliberately fire on the wrong target nor fire more than the required number of shots, including hits on some other competitor’s target and misses.

Penalties for ACCIDENTALLY firing a 4-6 string will be the lower 9 values counting (the 6th round of the magazine will be considered a miss):

14.10 (d) Excessive Hits - If a competitor, by mistake, fires more than the required number of shots, the required number of hits of lowest value will be scored. This shall not be considered a refire as outlined in Rule 9.14. 

Following the assumption that a competitor ACCIDENTALLY violated the rules, they will be given a warning and subsequently disqualified if duplicated:

18.15(d) Responsibility.  That after due warning of any infraction of existing rules, that the competitor shall understand that a repetition thereof shall be the subject of disqualification for that match or tournament.

Loading 5 rounds per magazine and firing 5 round strings are both clear conditions of the match.  Further, leaving a round in the chamber is a failure to follow centerline load commands.  If DELIBERATE, the competitor could be argued to be willfully evading the rules:

9.29 Evasion of Rules - No competitor will evade nor attempt to evade nor be an accessory to the evasion of any of the conditions of a match as prescribed in the tournament program or in these rules. Refusal of a competitor or tournament official to give testimony regarding facts known concerning violations or attempted violations of these rules will constitute being an accessory to the violation or attempted violation.

WILLFUL violation of rules as well as failure to follow load commands may be seen as discreditable conduct and subject to immediate expulsion.  

9.30 Penalties/Disqualification - The Official Referee, Jury, Supervisor or Match Director, upon proper presentation of evidence, may disqualify or order the expulsion of any competitor from the range for violations of rules or for other conduct considered discreditable or unsafe. In the event of a disagreement between Match Officials, the Official Referee or Jury shall prevail at the match with recourse only to the Protest Committee.

My take, anyway.  Open to others.  I have never seen a 6-4 string split but the same logic I laid out above could be used.  Bottom 9 shot values if I think it was an accident, take it to the Match Director for competitor expulsion if I think it's deliberate.

And while I was typing CR beat me to another point, centerline script asks line officials to identify saved rounds and alibis; everyone identifies if they have an alibi, but they're responsible for identifying their saved rounds to the officials also; how else can the officials know to report saved rounds to center line?
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Post by PhotoEscape on 10/10/2019, 2:29 pm

CR10X wrote:Surprised nobody mentioned that the OP's "rule" is not from the NRA rules.  

Check out the actual rule book.  Read it.

7. COURSES OF FIRE - gives the Time per 5 Shot String for various courses of fire.

8.1 Computing Time - ....Time is not checked on each individual shot but is computed on the indicated allowance for each five-shot string depending on the type of fire being conducted, except slow fire may be fired in 10-shot strings.

9.25 Cross Fires and Excessive Hits - No competitor will deliberately fire on the wrong target nor fire more than the required number of shots, including hits on some other competitor’s target and misses. (My comment - that includes the number of shots per string or per target)

10.7 Firing Line Procedures and Commands - .....The Range Officer having made sure that the range is clear (in timed and rapid fire the targets must be turned out of firing position) then commands “WITH 5 ROUNDS LOAD.”

While not in the NRA suggested commands, some ranges will have the command between strings for timed and rapid fire matches scored after ten shots that includes;  "CEASE FIRE.  ARE THERE ANY ALIBIS OR SAVED ROUNDS?" This allows the identification determination of refires and saved rounds prior to the second string of fire.  This is probably a good suggestion for the rule book, I believe its used by rifle shooters on some ranges as well.

CR

IMO 8.1 answers the OP (and mine) question completely. I had couple cases when I fired only 4 rounds in the first string in RF. I'd remove unfired round and set it next to the pistol, and inform scorer of the fact.

Thank you, Cecil.

AP
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Post by robvasi on 10/10/2019, 5:23 pm

This was my first competition. It was not an NRA match nor was it an official Bullseye match. The rules were modified.  This was not a sanctioned event for national scoring. I shoot with a revolver.  In the briefing, we were told that we could load more than five to accommodate for a misfire. They did not use the "with five rounds load" directive.  During rapid fire, I shot 6, by mistake. Some here seem to think I was trying to cheat. If I win by cheating, I don't win, so I don't cheat. 

I told the line judge what happened and the decision I made to shoot four the next string so as to have fired only 10 shots.  He said that was not a problem and gave me an alibi. I also asked the person who wrote the rules for this event and he said that what I did was not a violation of the rules.

Reading all of these replies has been an education for me.  I understand that in some competitions, I would have been in violation of the rules.  I did not fire six to try to cheat. 

So, is it an NRA rule violation to load six?  In this competition, we could.

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Post by PhotoEscape on 10/10/2019, 5:35 pm

I guess, technically in Slow Fire one can load up to 10 rounds if he/she desires so.  However see following rule and what it calls for:

10.7 Firing Line Procedures and Commands - .....The Range Officer having made sure that the range is clear (in timed and rapid fire the targets must be turned out of firing position) then commands WITH 5 ROUNDS LOAD.”

So I'd think, that in NRA sanctioned match loading more than 5 rounds at the time would indeed constitute violation.

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Post by james r chapman on 10/10/2019, 6:03 pm

Indoors, sf, it’s not uncommon to hang a pair of target. Shooting 5 rds on each tgt for easier scoring in CF.
4&6 is not a deal breaker
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Post by TexasShooter on 10/10/2019, 6:18 pm

PhotoEscape wrote:I guess, technically in Slow Fire one can load up to 10 rounds if he/she desires so.  However see following rule and what it calls for:

10.7 Firing Line Procedures and Commands - .....The Range Officer having made sure that the range is clear (in timed and rapid fire the targets must be turned out of firing position) then commands WITH 5 ROUNDS LOAD.”

So I'd think, that in NRA sanctioned match loading more than 5 rounds at the time would indeed constitute violation.

AP
 
The next paragraph of the rule book I'm looking at goes on to say:

Note: In slow fire events, which are scored after 10 shots, the command should be "10 SHOTS SLOW FIRE, 10 SHOTS IN 10 MINUTES, LOAD." (The number of rounds to be loaded by the competitor in slow fire stages will be determined by the competitor.)

From what I'm seeing there is no violation for loading more than 5 in the slow fire stages...

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Post by STEVE SAMELAK on 10/10/2019, 6:25 pm

robvasi wrote:This was my first competition. It was not an NRA match nor was it an official Bullseye match. The rules were modified.  This was not a sanctioned event for national scoring. I shoot with a revolver.  In the briefing, we were told that we could load more than five to accommodate for a misfire. They did not use the "with five rounds load" directive.  During rapid fire, I shot 6, by mistake. Some here seem to think I was trying to cheat. If I win by cheating, I don't win, so I don't cheat. 

I told the line judge what happened and the decision I made to shoot four the next string so as to have fired only 10 shots.  He said that was not a problem and gave me an alibi. I also asked the person who wrote the rules for this event and he said that what I did was not a violation of the rules.

Reading all of these replies has been an education for me.  I understand that in some competitions, I would have been in violation of the rules.  I did not fire six to try to cheat. 

So, is it an NRA rule violation to load six?  In this competition, we could.
In a case like yours you can do what ever makes you happy or aggravates the appropriate friend/competitor.
In sanctioned matches it sometimes sounds like a bunch of lawyers dividing a check.
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Post by Allen Barnett on 10/10/2019, 7:07 pm

More information followed and in this case no harm no foul for loading more than five rounds at a time.  Sounds as if it was a fun shoot maybe trying to garner some interest within the club or group for our sport.

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