NEW! EAA TANFOGLIO WITNESS ELITE LIMITED 9MM 4.75"

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Post by smsnyder on 10/14/2019, 7:11 am

Wow i shot one of these 1911 style pistols yesterday a guy had. He had a red dot tube on it. I liked how red dot was mounted on the frame. Trigger was outstanding. I kept all the bullets inside a 6 inch circle at 30 yards. I shot two hand of course. LOL

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Post by smsnyder on 10/14/2019, 7:15 am

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Post by radjag on 10/14/2019, 11:59 am

Hmmm - 6" group at 30 yards. Yes, similar to what I experienced.

Before I got serious about Bullseye Competition I bought a variety of handguns and started something of a quest to find a 9mm that would shoot well with factory 115 FMJ ammo. I bought one of these fine looking EAA Tanfoglio Witness Elite Limited guns new from the Ben Stoeger Pro Shop, then sent it to Henning Walgren to have a custom trigger and other goodies fitted.

I put some Lava grips on it and tried various sights. Here it is with a frame mounted C-more.
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I didn't like that set-up. So I then tried a slide mounted Vortex Venom - better.
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But I was never able to produce good results using my normal one-handed "Bullseye" stance. I found the trigger to be quite crude and difficult to adjust (but, to be fair, even some of the most expensive Italian target pistols have tricky to adjust triggers!). Maybe if I'd persevered and worked up a target load specifically for this gun I might have seen better results - but life is short - too many guns, not enough time - so I sold it on. The Buyer got an absolute bargain deal considering all of the money I'd spent on extras.

For 2 handed "run & gun" competition these pistols might indeed be the "bees knees". But for someone with medium sized hands it just did not work well for me as a Bullseye CF gun. Pity. Pretty gun.

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Post by LenV on 10/14/2019, 12:18 pm

Great groups right out of the box. Likes factory ammo. Fits hand. I hate double stack frames...

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Post by messenger on 10/14/2019, 3:09 pm

Len, you must own every gun (worth while) ever made! Not to mention multiples of each!

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Post by zanemoseley on 10/14/2019, 4:38 pm

Len's pistol photo above is a S&W 1911 not a Tanfoglio. Personally if I was gonna go for a non-1911 9mm double stack it would be based on a CZ 75, I got a CZ Shadow 2 just for fun and fits my medium/large hand well and shoots well but I haven't worked up a bullseye load, just shot Winchester white box.

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Post by DA/SA on 10/14/2019, 4:43 pm

zanemoseley wrote:Len's pistol photo above is a S&W 1911 not a Tanfoglio.  

I'd bet on it being a 952!  Smile

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Post by Olde Pilot on 10/14/2019, 5:02 pm

I'm confused. We can't tell a 952-2 from other 9mm pistols? Aren't we "experts" in these matters?

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Post by zanemoseley on 10/14/2019, 5:18 pm

DA/SA wrote:
zanemoseley wrote:Len's pistol photo above is a S&W 1911 not a Tanfoglio.  

I'd bet on it being a 952!  Smile

Yup you're right. Judged it too quickly. Had I noticed the pivot trigger it should have been obvious. Either way it's a single stack S&W not a Tanfoglio. Also a nice 952 is over $2k if I recall since they're out of production.

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Post by valbern67 on 10/17/2019, 8:48 am

messenger wrote:Len, you must own every gun (worth while) ever made! Not to mention multiples of each!

Bill


I was just thinking the same thing while reading his post showing his Kimber SS guns. Wow!! Razz

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Post by rich.tullo on 11/2/2019, 7:37 pm

The Tangfolio is a CZ 75 Clone. If you go 9MM your best option is a 9mm with a KKM Barrel. If you like the CZ grip frame then try a CZ P9 and get it customized by Cajun Gun works. I heard the XDM is a good platform for 9mm and the recoil reduction system in that gun is nice.
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Post by rich.tullo on 11/4/2019, 8:52 pm

Olde Pilot wrote:I'm confused. We can't tell a 952-2 from other 9mm pistols? Aren't we "experts" in these matters?People say the 
People say the 952 is more accurate than an orginal Sig 210 Legend.
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Post by Slartybartfast on 11/5/2019, 9:42 am

Have long wanted a Tanfoglio Gold Match. Specifically because it isn't a 1911 style grip, the 6in. slide, and the availability of calibre conversions.
Patience ran out before the budget became available, bought a CZ97B instead.
Now that I have the CZ97, the Waffen-Oschatz CZ97 Sport has me drooling. Best IMO would be a single stack CZ97 Sport. Much the same with the Pardini GT45, shame it's not available as a single stack.

rich.tullo wrote:The Tangfolio is a CZ 75 Clone. 

Not the Witness line. Witness line, as smsnyder notes, is a 1911 style pistol.
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Post by Rotwang on 11/5/2019, 11:14 am

Slartybartfast wrote:

rich.tullo wrote:The Tangfolio is a CZ 75 Clone. 

Not the Witness line. Witness line, as smsnyder notes, is a 1911 style pistol.

The eaa/tanfoglio witness is a cz clone and has been around for years.  The newer model eaa/tanfoglio witness 1911 is a 1911.  Check the tanfoglio site and look at the triggers as  pivoting or sliding.

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Post by Slartybartfast on 11/5/2019, 2:07 pm

Rotwang wrote:

The eaa/tanfoglio witness is a cz clone and has been around for years.  The newer model eaa/tanfoglio witness 1911 is a 1911.  Check the tanfoglio site and look at the triggers as  pivoting or sliding.
Sorry.
Okay, this is American EAA naming weirdness. Here, witness is 1911, everything else is CZ clone. Here the Tanfoglios follow the same naming as the Italian website.
http://www.tanfoglio.it/eng/catalogo/sport-amp-competition/
Seems needlessly confusing on the part of the American importer.
So OP isn't quite correct then, because that is indeed a hinged trigger pictured.
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Post by rich.tullo on 11/11/2019, 9:56 pm

Slartybartfast wrote:Have long wanted a Tanfoglio Gold Match. Specifically because it isn't a 1911 style grip, the 6in. slide, and the availability of calibre conversions.
Patience ran out before the budget became available, bought a CZ97B instead.
Now that I have the CZ97, the Waffen-Oschatz CZ97 Sport has me drooling. Best IMO would be a single stack CZ97 Sport. Much the same with the Pardini GT45, shame it's not available as a single stack.

rich.tullo wrote:The Tangfolio is a CZ 75 Clone. 

Not the Witness line. Witness line, as smsnyder notes, is a 1911 style pistol.
97 is very accurate you have to get the 1911 bushing for it. I HATE the Pardini Grip frame and much prefer the CZ97. You get a trigger job from CZ Custom Shop or Cajun and that gun is better than a Pardini. 

BTW there is a reason why no gun since the 1950's other than a 1911 has won at Camp Perry.
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Post by Slartybartfast on 11/12/2019, 9:52 am

rich.tullo wrote:

BTW there is a reason why no gun since the 1950's other than a 1911 has won at Camp Perry.

In all honesty? So what.
And correlation is not causation. How many other .45's have there been with decades of US Armed services marksmanship team use? And with everyone since the 50's saying "look at what everyone else is using" how much opening is there for alternatives? But, moot point. Most of the people saying that I need a 1911 because that's what wins championships will never win championships and I'm not likely to either. I want to shoot what I like and enjoy, and do it to the best of my ability. That really should be the focus of everyone if we want to the sport to attract more participants and not just 1911 and reloading diehards.
I keep thinking that it's a good thing I enjoy shooting enough to not be put off by all the advice that often sounds like a somewhat condescending "you're doing it wrong". Either for choice of pistol, or choice of shooting discipline.

On the trigger work and parts for the CZ, I'm up in Canada so sending stuff transborder for work is a bit problematic.
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Post by zanemoseley on 11/12/2019, 10:06 am

I just picked up a lightly used CZ Custom Shop Accu Shadow. The trigger is even better than my old Shadow 2 which was already great. The bushing should make it a wee bit more accurate. Soon to be sending it to have a Venom dot milled into the rear sight notch area. Its far and away the best 9mm I've ever shot. I'm sure a custom 1911/9mm would meet or exceed the accuracy of this CZ but its something different and fits my hand well, something I can't say about the Beretta 92FS which fits my hand a step better than a 2x4.


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Post by rich.tullo on 11/12/2019, 10:06 am

Name one pistol other than a 1911 that won even one CF or 45acp string at Perry in the last decade. Correlation, when the sample is 50/50 its not correlation. 

If you want to march to the beat of a different drummer shooting revolvers can make you a great BE shooter. 

You should shoot whatever you want. All I am saying is if you want to progress in this sport there is one Pistol that will take you to Master in CF and 45acp and that is the M1911. 

If you think you can shoot 10x at 50 yards with a Tangfolio , have at it , but I suspect it will be a challenge precisely because you do not have 50 years of institutional knowledge.

Also when you shoot a 50 on the long line with a Tangfolio do not blame your equipment because cuasation is not correlation.
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Post by rich.tullo on 11/12/2019, 10:22 am

zanemoseley wrote:I just picked up a lightly used CZ Custom Shop Accu Shadow. The trigger is even better than my old Shadow 2 which was already great. The bushing should make it a wee bit more accurate. Soon to be sending it to have a Venom dot milled into the rear sight notch area. Its far and away the best 9mm I've ever shot. I'm sure a custom 1911/9mm would meet or exceed the accuracy of this CZ but its something different and fits my hand well, something I can't say about the Beretta 92FS which fits my hand a step better than a 2x4.
I love CZ's just not for NEWBE Can you shoot expert scores with 75s, and 87s yes I bet you can. Can you shoot High Master scores if you do not have prior BE experience on a 1911 , that is tough. 

Will that change? It may but not this year or this decade.
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Post by Slartybartfast on 11/12/2019, 11:12 am

rich.tullo wrote:You should shoot whatever you want. All I am saying is if you want to progress in this sport there is one Pistol that will take you to Master in CF and 45acp and that is the M1911. 
Pistols don't take you to Master. YOU take yourself and the pistol to Master.
The only real influence the equipment can have is it may make it more difficult.

The focus is often too much on the equipment and not what makes the equipment good or what the current limitations of the equipment being used are.

When I started pistol, it was in a club that did ISSF courses of fire. Was told the only pistols to consider were Pardini/GSP or a selection of old Olympic winning brands and models.

Was mocked for my choice of pistol. Then all of a sudden, my pistol was held in good esteem and it's virtues could be expounded by those Pardini/GSP or old Olympic pistol shooters whose averages I had beaten, matched, or started to challenge.

The reason I placed where I did at the VSRPA Championships and Fall 2700 (the only two matches I have ever participated in) had nothing to do with the pistols that either I or the other competitors were shooting (except where there were malfunctions).

If I never make master it will never be down to the pistol in my hand. If not simply down to lack of practice, it will be down to me not recognising my shortcomings in trigger control or shot process discipline, not being able to call shots, and not recognising what it is about the process (or pistol) that's holding me back.

The advantages of the 1911 is history and a widespread use that makes determining errors or limitations by others on the firing line or finding an expert gunsmith easier. And given its old heritage, it's a single stack magazine that doesn't seem to be an option in full frame modern guns.

Why be derogatory and bring up blaming a 50 on the equipment? Ridiculous. And what  knowledge and data do you have that a 10X @ 50 with another pistol other than a 1911 is so impossible to attain? What I see is that no one is even testing pistols other than the 1911 @50yds. So there aren't even unsubstantiated claims for how many inches at 50 yds other pistols might shoot.  

It remains tiresome that every time another piece of equipment is mentioned that there's always those that have to put it down and say it's not the right choice for no other reason than it's not their choice or the popular choice. The emotional investment in trying to make me and others use another pistol is crazy.
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Post by zanemoseley on 11/12/2019, 12:23 pm

Trying to advance into the upper level BE ranks with sub standard equipment and/or ammo can test your patience. With a CF/45 pistol anything less than a 1.5" pistol will at some point cost you some points, to most people a 1.5" gun is about as good as it gets so we'll consider that the benchmark. If you want to shoot with a Tanfoglio and shelf grade ammo you might be doing good to keep it under 5". Now if you're lucky to keep all your shots on paper at 50 yards it's not going to cost you much but there will still be points lost. Someone like Zins can still likely whip all of us with the same 5" pistol but his score will be lower than if he were shooting one of his 1.5" pistols. Its more the Indian then the arrow but the arrow sure as hell makes a difference.

Where people get carried away is when they have a pistol/ammo combo that is 3" average but spend lots of time and money to try and get it to 1.5" meanwhile if you're still shooting MK scores you're likely not even going to see a benefit the difference is so small for the level you shoot at. 

Aftermarket high quality parts and available gunsmiths is one of the main reasons so many people recommend a 1911. The Pardini GT45 is a quality pistol but there's essentially no aftermarket support and limited smiths that have ever tinkered with one. So if you're not happy with the stock performance its a longer road to get it accurized to the point you desire if it can even get there in some cases. Some people tend to get overly opinionated about recommendations, in their defense some of us have spent good money on trying to improve the performance of a pistol that shouldn't have been chosen in the first place so they may still be trying to be helpful but not phrasing it kindly.

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Post by Slartybartfast on 11/12/2019, 1:08 pm

zanemoseley wrote:they may still be trying to be helpful but not phrasing it kindly.
Perhaps.

Case in point "if you're lucky to keep all your shots on paper at 50 yards". I'll assume you're trying to be helpful. But why say "lucky"? What reasonable pistol worthy of at least adjustable sights can't keep all shots on paper? Couldn't shoot the side of a barn to begin with with my CZ. But that's because I showed up at a 2700 with a pistol I had never shot before that was equipped with fixed combat sights. I was all on paper by the rapid fire stage. A few sessions back home and I'm on repair centers at 24yds with the occasional shots out to 6 which are entirely my fault. Don't think that's luck. And when the distinguished NG Chief shoots the pistol and compliments it, I'll rest assured that it'll carry me quite far.

If people have no experience with the precision or accuracy of the pistol in question, and obviously no interest in asking why someone is choosing a particular pistol (have never been asked about my choices and when I've said the reasons have been flatly ignored), best perhaps not to repetitively trumpet the 1911 bugle.

And assuming that because it's not a 1911 it's "sub standard" is a stretch. Particularly a Tanfoglio Gold Match that runs in the $2-3k range. Will it be difficult to find a smith if it needs tinkered with? Yes. Should it be tinkered with? If people are being honest, no one here knows.

"meanwhile if you're still shooting MK scores you're likely not even going to see a benefit the difference is so small for the level you shoot at"
And until someone is shooting at a level that is being hampered by their equipment, comparisons to Zins are somewhat out of place.
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Post by LenV on 11/12/2019, 1:45 pm

I would bet the XDM would be a good 1911 alternate. Several companies making after market parts to accurize. They are easy to acquire and fun to shoot. H&K another choice but they don't like lead bullets. I shoot my revolver about 1/3 of the time. I shoot for fun.
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Post by Slartybartfast on 11/12/2019, 5:25 pm

LenV wrote:I shoot for fun.
Hear! Hear!
If you're not being paid, and you're not enjoying it, why bother...
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