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Post by impalanut on 10/18/2019, 12:17 pm

I am a novice to bullyseye shooting. I currently have a S&S M41 with iron sights. I have fired around 2500 rounds over the last few months scoring 650-675/900 so obviously I have a long way to go. I am starting to look for a .45 to start training with that also. I have seen a number of these in the for sale section and have noticed that some are scooped up immediately and some languish for some time. In particular the ones that have been to well known bullseye smiths. In the last few weeks I have seen a few sold in a matter of hours and others still around after months although all seemed to have the correct pedigrees for being accurate.
I would appreciate some insight as to why this happens and how to know which are the best choices.
If you would like to comment in an offline message so as not to say things on the public forum that would be fine with me as well.
Thanks for any help.

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Post by 45ACP223 on 10/18/2019, 4:08 pm

I'll take a stab at it.  

First, I'd mount a red dot to both your 22 and 45.  I'd bet your scores will go up once you get used to sighting it.   I love shooting iron sights, but you don't have much time for aligning front an rear sights during the timed/rapid fire legs.  Can it be done, yes, but easier with a red dot.   

I think the gun mfg., model, Smith, and price has a lot to do with how fast they sell.  If you are a novice wanting his first BE 45, as most will tell you, I'd recommend buying a Springfield Range Office, have the trigger worked to 3.5 lbs.,and if needed a new match bushing, fitted slide stop, and you are good to go.  The money you save will buy you a red dot and mount and ammo for practice. 

https://www.bullseyeforum.net/t13265-wts-springfield-armory-range-officer-45acp-as-new-price-reduced 

That said, every once in a while a nice deal comes along and you might get a nice built 45 with a mount/red dot already on it for a good price.   Depends on if you want to wait and take your chances.
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Post by Slartybartfast on 10/18/2019, 4:17 pm

Be a rebel, shoot something other than a 1911. :p
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Post by Aprilian on 10/18/2019, 4:50 pm

In my experience the cost of ammo far outstrips the cost of the gun.  So get something you can grow with.   Many people here will point you in the right direction.
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Post by Oleg G on 10/18/2019, 4:59 pm

I know that you are looking for an advice on a .45 pistol but I will propose something different, based on the your current level of proficiency - continue shooting your .22 pistol at least until you break 800/900. If you can discipline yourself to NOT pick up the .45 until you break 830 - Expert score - even better. This will equip you with a decent grasp of the fundamentals and prepare you for training with the .45. Iron sites or red dot is matter of preference and convenience. For those of us with aged eyes, the red dot is easier, but remember that the National Record was set with the iron sights and it still stands. Smile

Reason for my advice: I started shooting Bullseye 3 years ago and picked up the .45 almost immediately. It took me 2 years to get to Sharpshooter level and then, a year ago, I have put down my .45 and shot a .22 pistol exclusively for this entire year. I shot a 1911 conversion on the lower frame from my .45, using a 3.5lb trigger - all the makings of a .45 but without the recoil. I now shoot Expert-level scores and am ready to pick up the .45 again. I will start shooting the .45 when the indoor season starts shortly.

Please take my advice - it works! As an additional benefit, you can save for a better gun and ammo while you are training with the .22 pistol.

Regards,
Oleg.
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Post by adminbot1911 on 10/18/2019, 5:01 pm

Here's what I look for when buying a .45:

- Is it a reasonable price?
- Does it have the features I'm looking for (e.g. commander hammer and beavertail safety, easy to change out but I prefer as close to my preferred setup as possible)?
- Is it a name that I am familiar with and trust?

I have only been competitively shooting since 2013 but in that short period of time I have observed and learned of guns that have had failure to feed, or maintenance, or customer service issues. Sometimes one issue is enough for me to put a manufacturer lower down my priority list - or remove it entirely. 

Everyone has their own experiences. Sometimes it's a self fulfilling prophecy too; reputation begets reputation. I'm sure folks would never touch a brand even though they'd never held one or shot one before, just based off what they read.

I know this is a broad answer to a broad question but sometimes the for sale forum reflects the various irrationalities of human nature. There is a gun at a great price that's literally recommended by everyone that knows BE that has been there for weeks despite a new post every third day titled to the effect of "starting bullseye what should I buy". 

Fortunately my budget has been able to accommodate a bad gun purchase or two. But if I hadn't taken the risk, I'd never have ended up with my current lineup.


Last edited by adminbot1911 on 10/18/2019, 10:56 pm; edited 2 times in total (Reason for editing : Serious typos)
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Post by Larry2520 on 10/18/2019, 5:58 pm

It all comes down to personal preference. I started out with a Chinese 45 and when I felt I was going to stay in the sport I went to a local smith and had him work on it. We also have an engineer that shoots with us and he works on his own guns.He's given some valuable information on how to do some home smithing. With cnc machining these days tightening the slide/frame isn't necessary in most cases (someone will probably refute that). I have successfully built a 45 and a 9mm that have reasonable accuracy, they shoot better than I can. As far as the guns for sale it also is a matter of personal preference. Some people drive Mercedes because they think it's a better car when in fact it's not. They have just as many problems as every other car out there but more expensive to fix!. They also are into appearances and think it gives them an air of superiority. So if you're in the market for a 45 and don't have a source local take a chance and buy one that is a maybe. Of course it all could break down to price.

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Post by Sa-tevp on 10/18/2019, 8:06 pm

Slartybartfast wrote:Be a rebel, shoot something other than a 1911. :p

How has that been working out for you? Have you found a 45 you get good results with? Are you leading or looking to follow?
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Post by mpolans on 10/18/2019, 10:35 pm

A lot of it comes down to personal preference.  I snapped up an STI Range Master because, even though it's not one of the big names, and may not have been custom built specifically for bullseye, I was looking for a gun with some key features to test out a theory.  I was looking for a long/wide dust cover and a bull barrel.  I wanted the long/wide dust cover for the added thickness to mount a frame-mounted optic, particularly a scopemount designed for an STI widebody frame (dust cover similar to the Range Master).  I wanted the bull barrel because I want to see how a gun with a frame-mounted optic and bull barrel feels compared to a more common slide-mounted optic.  
I'm also considering taking it a step wilder and having the bull barrel replaced with a barrel and steel cone 3-port compensator, then lightening the slide to see how that compares.  
My guess is that the frame mounted gun with bull barrel can be made to shoot softer, will return to the target quicker, and will be more reliable with lighter loads than the more traditional slide-mounted guns.
I'm guessing that a cone compensator with a lightened slide, using 160gr bullets and a slower burning powder than most might use, will make the gun shoot even softer and have the muzzle return to the target even quicker.
That said, I'm not thinking it'll make a drastic change in scores, but I think it might be fun to see if my theories are proven correct.

That was a long-winded explanation of what has driven my recent purchases.  For your purposes, I'm guessing you'd be best served by either getting a used .45 that a decent gunsmith has already built up for bullseye, or if you can't find one, a Springfield RO and getting a scope rail, red dot, a match bushing fitted, and a trigger job or a drop-in trigger kit.  All that might be do-able for about $1100-1200ish, maybe less if you find some good used deals.

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Post by NKF on 10/18/2019, 10:53 pm

Lots of great advice. I'm somewhat new to the BE game. I shot a older Ruger MK II. Nothing special, just some basic trigger work with factory parts.

So when I was looking at getting a 1911 to add to the game. I found a nice used 1911 at one of the local gun shops. Slid fit tight. Trigger was not to bad. So I bought it and figured it could be a BE gun or just use it as a carry gun.

Took it to the range and had a friend of mine look at it. He shot a 10 round at 25 yards and shot a 97 with it. Only had iron sights and he is 79.
With a little work now it has a dot on it and a blast to shot in the mid 90's for me.
The gun, Ruger SR 1911. Has a few things that most pay extra for that are standard on them.

Find what you like and keep it basic. Most of all have fun.

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Post by Outthere on 10/19/2019, 5:54 am

impalanut wrote:I am a novice to bullyseye shooting. I currently have a S&S M41 with iron sights. I have fired around 2500 rounds over the last few months scoring 650-675/900 so obviously I have a long way to go. I am starting to look for a .45 to start training with that also. I have seen a number of these in the for sale section and have noticed that some are scooped up immediately and some languish for some time. In particular the ones that have been to well known bullseye smiths. In the last few weeks I have seen a few sold in a matter of hours and others still around after months although all seemed to have the correct pedigrees for being accurate.
I would appreciate some insight as to why this happens and how to know which are the best choices.
If you would like to comment in an offline message so as not to say things on the public forum that would be fine with me as well.
Thanks for any help.
Some sound advice given so far.

As to why some guns sell faster than others-there are plenty of here that have alot of guns and are looking for something specific, unusual, or an item we don't have. 

Or it's so cheap that we just can't pass it up.  Smile  Plenty of us here have guns that we haven't shot in years.

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Post by BE Mike on 10/19/2019, 8:35 am

Oleg G wrote:I know that you are looking for an advice on a .45 pistol but I will propose something different, based on the your current level of proficiency - continue shooting your .22 pistol at least until you break 800/900. If you can discipline yourself to NOT pick up the .45 until you break 830 - Expert score - even better. This will equip you with a decent grasp of the fundamentals and prepare you for training with the .45. Iron sites or red dot is matter of preference and convenience. For those of us with aged eyes, the red dot is easier, but remember that the National Record was set with the iron sights and it still stands. Smile

Reason for my advice: I started shooting Bullseye 3 years ago and picked up the .45 almost immediately. It took me 2 years to get to Sharpshooter level and then, a year ago, I have put down my .45 and shot a .22 pistol exclusively for this entire year. I shot a 1911 conversion on the lower frame from my .45, using a 3.5lb trigger - all the makings of a .45 but without the recoil. I now shoot Expert-level scores and am ready to pick up the .45 again. I will start shooting the .45 when the indoor season starts shortly.

Please take my advice - it works! As an additional benefit, you can save for a better gun and ammo while you are training with the .22 pistol.

Regards,
Oleg.
I must disagree with the advice to shoot the .22 for so long. I did that when I first started out, due to financial necessity. I made outdoor sharpshooter with the .22. When I finally could afford a 1911 and reloading equipment, I chose a Colt series 70 Gold Cup. I struggled with the 1911 and it was demoralizing. One other thing was that the Gold Cup wasn't grouping well at 50 yards. When I finally was able to catch up with my .22 sharpshooter scores with the Gold Cup, I was noticing that my long line shots often weren't on call. I was shooting a monthly match at the old Ft. Sam Houston range when my Gold Cup quit working. The shooter next to me was Ken Buster. He was a member of the All Guard Shooting Team. Ken asked his pistolsmith to try to fix my Gold Cup and loaned me his back-up 1911. I couldn't believe how good the trigger felt and how well it shot! Ken advised me that the Gold Cup wasn't really up to snuff for outdoor 2700's and that I should get a custom bullseye pistol when I could (the unit pistolsmith did fix my Gold Cup). I took his advice, sold the Colt and bought a Jimmy Clark "Heavy Slide" built on a Colt Government Model. It wasn't long until I made outdoor expert. When I started shooting, optics weren't a thing. The first time I ever saw a red dot on a sight was at a Ft. Sam match when Joe Pascarella had a Sears Oxford Sight mounted on a 1911. This was in the very late 70's or very early 80's. He was also with the All Guard Team. I apologize for the rambling. My advice, if you are serious about the game, is to get the best 1911 that you can afford. Start reloading for it, if you don't reload now. Stick with iron sights if your eyes are good, do some type of training every day, even if it is only for 5 minutes and shoot as many matches that you can. After you have made outdoor expert and want to start with a red dot, put it on your .22 at first. All that apparent movement can really cause "chicken finger".
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Post by David R on 10/19/2019, 9:28 am

I think if money for ammo is not a problem, then get the 45. No reason to wait. Shooting the 45 will help your 22 scores.

Taking to my wife this morning. Shooting a lousy score with the 45 is as much fun as a good score with a 22.

Don't miss out on the fun. We have 2 30 round matches every week. Nothing is NRA, just local clulb shooting slow, timed and rapid match. One has turning targets at 25 yards, the other is 50 feet with a Buzzer. Both indoors. I shoot 2 per night, both center fire. 60 rounds total. I shoot my 1911 9mm for the best score, then I switch between 45 and 38 revolver. I am improving with all 3.

My wife shoots one rimfire match and one centerfire (45) match. Some nights she does well. Some nights not all 10 on a target.

If money for ammo is a problem, then stick with the rimfire.

Just borrow a 45 for a match and you will be hooked!

David

Edit: This monday I am bringing my spare 45 with a box of ammo for the fella next to me that shoots only 22 and wants to try the 45. ON wednesday, My daughter will be using it. Next monday another shooter wants to try it.
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Post by zanemoseley on 10/19/2019, 11:14 am

I started off the get go with a 45, it wasn't easy and was very frustrating at times. After 5 years I'm getting really close to master. If I were to do it again I think I would stick with the 22 until I was breaking expert with it. If you're not shooting good scores with a 22 as a beginner you sure as hell won't be doing it with a 45, more than likely you'll be flinching shots quite often off the target. Getting good takes time and patience, if you're getting frustrated it won't be fun and may affect your future in the sport.

Which 45 you start with depends on your budget and goals. A tweaked Springfield RO will take you a long way even with the stock barrel. You very well may end up with a full custom before long but it's definitely not a starting requirement. Find something that feels good in your hand and balances well, I prefer a heavy pistol with a full slide mount rail and a heavy 9000SC dot, I find the heavy slide makes the recoil more pleasant over the frame mount dot I started with. If possible make friends in thr BE community and try their guns to see what you like.

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Post by mpolans on 10/20/2019, 9:44 pm

I've got a Pardini SP, a few 1911s in .45acp, and a Marvel .22 conversion with a combo rail.  I actually had a Pardini before I started bullseye, for shooting ISSF Rapid Fire and Standard Pistol.

If I were doing it all over again and I was on a budget of $1500 or less, I'd get a Springfield RO.  I'd get a Nelson with a combo rail and put it on the gun.  I'd get a decent red dot (Ultradot or an earlier Made in Japan Tasco ProPoint 2 or 3), and I'd pay for either a trigger job or a drop-in parts kit to get a 3.5lb trigger.  I'd take the RO top end off and put it aside and slap the Nelson conversion on and shoot .22 only until I was solid on the fundamentals...able to call your shots and shoot groups at 50 yards...probably mid-Sharpshooter scores.  Only then would I bother with getting a match bushing fit to the RO top end and try using it for CF and .45.  
Unless someone is very experienced in another competitive discipline and is sound on the fundamentals, I think jumping to .45 too early can just lead to bad habits like anticipating recoil (flinching) and jerking the trigger.

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Post by BE Mike on 10/21/2019, 7:32 am

I don't know what they do now, but my understanding is that the AMU used to put their new shooters on 1911 hardball guns, shooting factory 230 gr. hardball until they reached a certain level. They would also have them enter matches as outdoor master, regardless of their skill level.
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Post by Slartybartfast on 10/22/2019, 11:12 am

Sa-tevp wrote:
Slartybartfast wrote:Be a rebel, shoot something other than a 1911. :p

How has that been working out for you? Have you found a 45 you get good results with? Are you leading or looking to follow?
Not sure whether to take the questions as serious or smarmy. Nor how to interpret the last question.
IMO, if you're looking "to follow" do what everyone else (supposedly) is doing without question. But if you understand that the only reason to dedicate time, energy, and money into an activity is because you enjoy it, and despite all protestations and derision to the contrary what others declare as gospel is only what works best for them.
Certainly doing and using the same as everyone else may serve as a shortcut to getting equipment or training help. But if the difference doesn't daunt you, and why should it, stepping out and using and learning other equipment or techniques or using a different approach isn't that consequential. For all the people that say that you MUST attain master or expert with .22 before adding .45 there are people who've not followed that approach and advocate doing it all either for fun, or results, or both.
Otherwise, I have a firearm that I am happy to own and enjoy shooting. It fits my hand better, feels better, and _I_ like the trigger better than any 1911 I could get for the same price. Seriously, if you don't like what you own, enjoy using it, and have fun competing, what's the point?
Currently I'm in the same ranks as the vast majority of marksmen and my skill is far lower than what my firearm is capable of. If one day someone can actually come up to me and say "your shooting process is perfect, too bad you pistol isn't better" then I'll look at improving the pistol I have, swapping it for a custom model of the same, or change pistol type.
First 2700 competition ever, with a brand new gun I had only fired one magazine in before, using 230gr commercial ammo, I was a few steps above the worst there that day. I shot worse than the first time I ever shot 45 in competition during a service pistol EIC, but that pistol was properly sighted in (my pistol with fixed sights seemed to have an aimpoint that was above and to the right of the target face at 50yds) and I was only struggling against my own poor discipline and wobble for bad groups.
Day before the 2700 competition two accomplished members of the VSRPA and VNG shot the pistol and were impressed by the trigger, the feel, and made decent groups with the pistol. So I'm not worried that I won't be able to practice and progress with my choice in equipment.
What's that quote used about fundamentals vs. equipment and how discussion is skewed the other way?
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