CMP 2020 Pistol Match rules

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Post by BrianD on Mon Nov 11, 2019 1:30 pm

https://thecmp.org/wp-content/uploads/2020PistolRules_Draft.pdf

Here are the preliminary rules.

Pistol rules start at 4.1.6 and what you are going to shoot start at
5.2.

Looks to me exactly like a NRA 2700

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Post by Danehogle on Mon Nov 11, 2019 2:09 pm

No...... it’s the CMP 2700.
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Post by LenV on Mon Nov 11, 2019 2:48 pm

No Super Senior. Model 10 allowed for EIC. No rule against setting your .45 down to 2.5lbs for the CF match. Those were a couple of things that stood out on a quick read. That and Match Pistol classification is different then service pistol classification. Why do we need a classification for service pistol?

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Post by Slartybartfast on Mon Nov 11, 2019 4:23 pm

LenV wrote:Why do we need a classification for service pistol?
For the same reason there are different classifications for service and match rifles. ren't the service pistol qualifications the same as before? How do the match qualifications compare to the NRA requirements?
Isn't the CMPs reason for existence training in service weapon marksmanship? With that and given the differences in pistols and ammunition the difference is warranted.
With the CMP fully embracing the 2700, wonder how far the farce of pretending Atterbury will be ready on time will go on for?
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Post by Slartybartfast on Mon Nov 11, 2019 4:46 pm

Here's a question:
5.1.1 b)" Competitors must be in the ready position when the READY ON THE FIRING LINE command is given."

So, then it's an infraction to use the EIC/International ready position or simply to not have pistol up and level to be pointing at the target. Correct?
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Post by LenV on Mon Nov 11, 2019 5:14 pm

I wondered why the "Service Pistol" had any classification? I didn't wonder why it was different. I have never shot an EIC match where they differentiated by classification. Everybody shoots against everyone else. The Match Pistol classifications match NRA. Maybe that classification for Service Pistol is for "as issued" matches and not EIC matches. If that's the case it would explain why I have never seen a classified match.
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Post by Slartybartfast on Mon Nov 11, 2019 5:40 pm

LenV wrote:I wondered why the "Service Pistol" had any classification? I didn't wonder why it was different. I have never shot an EIC match where they differentiated by classification. Everybody shoots against everyone else. The Match Pistol classifications match NRA. Maybe that classification for Service Pistol is for "as issued" matches and not EIC matches. If that's the case it would explain why I have never seen a classified match.
Sorry then. I'm looking at the rules and figuring that that rule was always there as it's not marked in red as changed.
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Post by Lightfoot on Mon Nov 11, 2019 5:51 pm

The funny thing is 270+ is a "High Master" score.  Wow that's pretty low for a HM.
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Post by Slartybartfast on Mon Nov 11, 2019 5:52 pm

Is there a possible issue in the definition of "orthopedic or specially shaped grips"?
The rule doesn't go into any of the detail on the limits of the grip as either the NRA or ISSF rules do.
Under NRA rules the shelf can extend up an inch.
Under ISSF rules the shelf must only extend out 90 degrees.
Under the draft CMP rules, a grip is all but a free-pistol grip with the smallest of gaps so that the hand is not fully enveloped would be allowed.
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Post by James Hensler on Mon Nov 11, 2019 6:46 pm

It looks like a Pardini 32 is legal in center fire??
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Post by Wes Lorenz on Mon Nov 11, 2019 8:19 pm

Match officials may be competitors - see pg. 19, section 2.2 - NICE!!!

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Post by Jack H on Tue Nov 12, 2019 12:29 am

A pet rule of mine is NRA 10.10 and 10.11. 

Anyway, compare the NRA rule to CMP 5.1.5.d. 

It is pretty clear to me that NRA rules are confusing

lol!
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Post by Asa Yam on Tue Nov 12, 2019 4:03 am

Rule 4.1.4 ("Other Approved Service Pistols") has been modified to include new firearms.  Added to the list are:

  • Beretta 92x series pistols (9x19 only); 
  • SIG P320 X5 Legion (only manufactured in 9mm, but .40 S&W pistols allowed?), and:
  • Smith and Wesson Model 10 revolver (.38 Spl).


NOTE:  Although the X5 is an "Other Approved Service Pistol", trigger weights for Service Pistols remain at 4 lbs. per Rule 4.1.1 h) .  So, how can .5 lbs be added to the trigger pull of a factory gun?

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Post by CR10X on Tue Nov 12, 2019 8:52 am

Jack H.

The difference between the NRA Rules and the CMP rule for refire strings are simple.  You will always be responsible (scored) on firing 5 rounds on a refire string.  Any shots not fired on a refire string are counted as 0 for both the NRA and CMP.   

The NRA rules must cover two possibilities.  NRA Rule 10.10 allows for either "refire" matches or "no-refire" matches. 

NRA 10.10 (a) is for "refire" matches.  For "refire" matches, you can do anything you need to on the refire string to safety try and get 5 rounds off, including loading another magazine.  Also, you can use 10.11 if you have an alibi on the secong string of fire, if you alread had an alibi that was allowed on the first string, since you have nothing to lose by attempting to clear and get the remaining rounds off. 

Rule 10.10(b), where you have a "no-refire" match you can still try to get 5 rounds off (under 10.11) for any string where you have a malfunction, since there will be no refire string. 

Rule 10.11 is referenced in both 10.10(a) and 10.10(b) and makes it clear what you can do either on a refire string, or for any string when there is no refire available. 

The NRA rule is confusing because of the issue that the "Example ....." section at the end of 10.10(b) should actually start a new paragraph and is part of the explaination (as it was in the previous versions) and then the 10.10(b) section is duplicated again.  

The CMP is not clear if a competitor can attempt to complete the 5 round refire string if another malfunction occurs on that string.  Therefore, as was the previous rule in the NRA which was not clear, the shooter will be at the interpretation of a match official if they can do anyhing to help complete the 5 round refire string.  

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Post by javaduke on Tue Nov 12, 2019 9:40 am

6.6.1 reads "A shot that is scored as a X, 10 or 9 may not be protested."
What's the rationale behind it? If the system scored my shot as 9 and it should be 10, why can't I protest? Same is with 10 vs X, since X count is used for the tie break.

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Post by Slartybartfast on Tue Nov 12, 2019 10:26 am

Okay, I'm a technical and procedures manual writer by trade. So sloppy and redundant rules bug me no end.
The Pistol/Revolver rules need re-written for clarity. There is unnecessary overlap.
If a pistol is either semi-automatic or a revolver, then there shouldn't be a separate revolver rule.
Revolver trigger weights are given in different places.

As a pistol is defined as either a semi-automatic or a revolver, revolver rules should just be under the three pistol rules sections. Or, the pistol rules section should be re-titled "Semi-automatic Pistol" and have three matching "Revolver" sections.

Perhaps more confusingly, except for the trigger weight repetition, the revolver section is about Matches (providing revolver matches or restricting matches to revolvers only) and not Equipment and really belongs elsewhere.

Overall, there is far too much doubling of information. It isn't necessary for the rules to have 5.2.4 CMP Center-Fire Pistol Match say "Competitors must use Center-Fire Pistols ( Rule 4.1.8 ) in this event. " AND have 4.1.8 start with "Pistols that comply with this rule may be used in CMP-Sanctioned Center-Fire Pistol Matches."

Throughout shot count and course of fire and equipment descriptions seem to be repeated. Making it very easy for a change to create a contradiction.

I've made many other observations in the past with the CMP and the NRA rule books.
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Post by Slartybartfast on Tue Nov 12, 2019 11:23 am

For someone new reading the rules, the language used is horribly imprecise.
One egregious example is Event/Match/Course. These three words are mixed together and used in different ways in different contexts.
Thinking of what these things should mean without delving into the NRA or CMP rules you might think it should be as simple as:
Event: a grouping of matches.
Match: a single course of fire.
Course: the course of fire for a match.

But Events in table 1 are:
- the President’s Pistol Course Event
- the Rimfire Pistol Match Course Event
- the Center-Fire Pistol Match Course Event
- the 45 Caliber Pistol Match Course Event
- the Service Pistol Match Course Event
- the National Service Pistol Aggregate Event
- the CMP Pistol Aggregate Event
- the CMP Match Pistol Three-Gun Aggregate Event
- the Pistol Team Events Event

Then, "Procedures for CMP Match Sanctioning" are defined. Which seems to outline that a MATCH is the holding of EVENTS which consist of MATCH COURSE EVENTS.

Over-thinking? Yes. Pedantic? Yes. 
But it's accumulation of these unclear and fuzzy uses of language and terms that turn rule books into a morass of difficult to interpret rules.
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Post by james r chapman on Tue Nov 12, 2019 11:28 am

And then there’s the unnecessarily tackling the quarterback enigma.
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Post by Danehogle on Tue Nov 12, 2019 1:08 pm

6.6.1 is for electronic targets.
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Post by LenV on Tue Nov 12, 2019 2:33 pm

Allen corrected me on the .45 rule. 4.1.9 would make all .45 semi autos have 3.5 lb trigger. Darn.. I read it as a rule for the 45 match but it has CF in red print. Darn again.
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Post by TonyH on Tue Nov 12, 2019 3:06 pm

Slartybartfast wrote:Okay, I'm a technical and procedures manual writer by trade. So sloppy and redundant rules bug me no end.
The Pistol/Revolver rules need re-written for clarity. There is unnecessary overlap.
If a pistol is either semi-automatic or a revolver, then there shouldn't be a separate revolver rule.
Revolver trigger weights are given in different places.

As a pistol is defined as either a semi-automatic or a revolver, revolver rules should just be under the three pistol rules sections. Or, the pistol rules section should be re-titled "Semi-automatic Pistol" and have three matching "Revolver" sections.

Perhaps more confusingly, except for the trigger weight repetition, the revolver section is about Matches (providing revolver matches or restricting matches to revolvers only) and not Equipment and really belongs elsewhere.

Overall, there is far too much doubling of information. It isn't necessary for the rules to have 5.2.4 CMP Center-Fire Pistol Match say "Competitors must use Center-Fire Pistols ( Rule 4.1.8 ) in this event. " AND have 4.1.8 start with "Pistols that comply with this rule may be used in CMP-Sanctioned Center-Fire Pistol Matches."

Throughout shot count and course of fire and equipment descriptions seem to be repeated. Making it very easy for a change to create a contradiction.

I've made many other observations in the past with the CMP and the NRA rule books.
I think most people here probably agree with you. I, for one, do...and had a disagreement with the CMP officials at Camp Perry about poorly written rules and their interpretation and implementation of the same.
If you have the expertise to rewrite the rules, so they read well and make better sense, you may want to volunteer your services to the CMP as they go through the process to incorporate all the recent changes to the rules (they are still in draft mode). They may be well open to that and welcome the help.
People may agree with you here but in the overall scheme of things, it does not drive any changes at the CMP.
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Post by Slartybartfast on Tue Nov 12, 2019 3:37 pm

LenV wrote:Allen corrected me on the .45 rule. 4.1.9 would make all .45 semi autos have 3.5 lb trigger. Darn.. I read it as a rule for the 45 match but it has CF in red print. Darn again.
I would say not true.
A .45 pistol with a 2.5lb pull most certainly qualifies as a CF pistol under the rules.
It is a pistol that:
a) has calibre greater than or equal to .32
b) has a trigger pull greater than or equal to 2.5lbs.

What it doesn't do is qualify as a .45 pistol. Because of b), it does NOT have a minimum 3.5 lb pull.

(To mess with people on the firing line shoot a .454 Casull revolver for your .45 pistol. Might not win, but you'll certainly shake up all the other participants.)
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Post by LenV on Tue Nov 12, 2019 4:02 pm

No, I would never dream of using the Casull. The 460 would be my revolver of choice. I read that 4.1.9 and if it did not have CF in the first line I would agree with you. I did agree first read thru.


The 460 knocks down pistol boxes on both sides of you and clears all the dust out of the rafters.
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Post by Slartybartfast on Tue Nov 12, 2019 4:48 pm

LenV wrote:I read that 4.1.9 and if it did not have CF in the first line I would agree with you. I did agree first read thru.
Okay, I see it now. And this is why rules should NEVER give information that is duplicated elsewhere. They copy pasted the rule 4.1.8 for 4.1.9 and forgot to change which match is was being applied to.

There is now a contradiction. The Rule 5.2.4 says only 4.1.8 applies. But rule 4.1.8 and 4.1.9 both say they apply to pistols used in 5.2.4 (and annoyingly none of the references in these pistol rules actually references the rule number of the match). None of the pistol rules say they apply to the CMP 45 Caliber Pistol Match.

5.2.4 CMP Center-Fire Pistol Match: Competitors must use Center-Fire Pistols (Rule 4.1.Cool in this event. 
5.2.5 CMP 45 Caliber Pistol Match: Competitors must use 45 Caliber Pistols (Rule 4.1.9) in this event.

By the definition of the Pistol Match Events (horrendous terminology) the rule 4.1.9 is defined as irrelevant to 5.2.4 by the rule 5.2.4.

As the clear intention is that the rule 4.1.8 defines what is a legal "CF pistol" and the rule 4.1.9 defines what is a legal ".45 pistol". The correct thing to do is to eliminate the first sentence of all three pistol rules.

If the intent really is to put a restriction on .45s regardless of which match they are being used in, then the issues/errors with the rules run even deeper.
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Post by Slartybartfast on Tue Nov 12, 2019 4:56 pm

Grips like this are legal for CMP .22, CF, and .45.

Find a rule that proves me wrong.

CMP 2020 Pistol Match rules 56551760_zz_justierung-fp-nu
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