CMP 2020 Pistol Match rules

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CMP 2020 Pistol Match rules - Page 2 Empty CMP 2020 Pistol Match rules

Post by BrianD on 11/11/2019, 12:30 pm

First topic message reminder :

https://thecmp.org/wp-content/uploads/2020PistolRules_Draft.pdf

Here are the preliminary rules.

Pistol rules start at 4.1.6 and what you are going to shoot start at
5.2.

Looks to me exactly like a NRA 2700

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Post by Slartybartfast on 11/12/2019, 4:12 pm

TonyH wrote:

If you have the expertise to rewrite the rules, so they read well and make better sense, you may want to volunteer your services to the CMP as they go through the process to incorporate all the recent changes to the rules (they are still in draft mode). They may be well open to that and welcome the help.
Went to the the CMP website, found they have Forums, and have registered there.
Will comment and link this discussion in their 2020 rules discussion.
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Post by cdrt on 11/12/2019, 4:36 pm

I already have a thread going on it in the Rules section.
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Post by LenV on 11/12/2019, 4:42 pm

Can someone find out if the model 10 allowed for EIC has to have a 4lb trigger? And how would you do that? Getting them up to 2.5 can be a challenge.

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Post by TonyH on 11/12/2019, 4:52 pm

LenV wrote:Can someone find out if the model 10 allowed for EIC has to have a 4lb trigger? And how would you do that? Getting them up to 2.5 can be a challenge.

Len
And why just the Model 10....there are plenty of other revolvers that were issued for service? I have a Colt Police Positive that was a service revolver.
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CMP 2020 Pistol Match rules - Page 2 Empty Trigger Weight

Post by Allen Barnett on 11/12/2019, 5:00 pm

LenV wrote:Allen corrected me on the .45 rule. 4.1.9 would make all .45 semi autos have 3.5 lb trigger. Darn.. I read it as a rule for the 45 match but it has CF in red print. Darn again.
Sorry!
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Post by Allen Barnett on 11/12/2019, 5:09 pm

LenV wrote:Allen corrected me on the .45 rule. 4.1.9 would make all .45 semi autos have 3.5 lb trigger. Darn.. I read it as a rule for the 45 match but it has CF in red print. Darn again.
Sorry! Didn't mean to do it, really. I thought the way you did on my first read.
Allen

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Post by Slartybartfast on 11/12/2019, 5:19 pm

The more I read/compare, the more I find.
These are all supposed to be "CMP Match Pistol Events" So:
"22 Rimfire Pistol Match Course" >> "22 Rimfire Match Pistol Event"
"Center-Fire Pistol Match Course" >> "Center-Fire Match Pistol Event"
"45 Caliber Pistol Match Course" >> "45 Caliber Match Pistol Event"
"Service Pistol Match Course" >> "Service Pistol Event"

In 7.5 CMP National Championship Pistol Events, to simplify "events":
7.5.1 "22 Rimfire Pistol Match" >> "22 Rimfire Match Pistol"
7.5.2 "Center-Fire Pistol Match" >> "Center-Fire Match Pistol"
7.5.3 "45 Caliber Pistol Match" >> "45 Caliber Match Pistol"

Replace paragraphs with:
as per CMP 22 Rimfire Match Pistol, Rule 5.2.3 with separate  categories for competitors who fire pistols with metallic sights and pistols with any sights as defined in Rule 4.1.6 c).

as per CMP Center-Fire Match Pistol, rule 5.2.4 with separate  categories for competitors who fire pistols with metallic sights and pistols with any sights as defined in Rule 4.1.6 c).

as per 45 Caliber Match Pistol, rule 5.2.5 with separate  categories for competitors who fire pistols with metallic sights and pistols with any sights as defined in Rule 4.1.6 c).

The use of metallic/any-sights and where restrictions or separate categories are required is inconsistent.

The rule 7.5 says "Competitors in these events receive the awards described in this Rule. ", and no awards are described.
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CMP 2020 Pistol Match rules - Page 2 Empty Now I am really confused!!!!

Post by Allen Barnett on 11/12/2019, 6:46 pm

Allen Barnett wrote:
LenV wrote:Allen corrected me on the .45 rule. 4.1.9 would make all .45 semi autos have 3.5 lb trigger. Darn.. I read it as a rule for the 45 match but it has CF in red print. Darn again.
Sorry! Didn't mean to do it, really. I thought the way you did on my first read.
Allen
Slartyblast why don't you share what you PMed me with the rest so we can really confuse everybody!!! LOL

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Post by Allen Barnett on 11/12/2019, 6:49 pm

And if I read things right there is no opition to shoot a 22 2700 either.

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Post by Allen Barnett on 11/12/2019, 6:50 pm

And if I read things right there is no opition to shoot a 22 2700 either.

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Post by Slartybartfast on 11/13/2019, 8:35 am

Allen Barnett wrote:

Slartyblast why don't you share what you PMed me with the rest so we can really confuse everybody!!! LOL
It's just a link to my post earlier in the thread.

"See my response to LenV about your correction of trigger weights and 45s.

https://www.bullseyeforum.net/t13508-cmp-2020-pistol-match-rules#117436

What a mess."
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Post by Slartybartfast on 11/13/2019, 8:54 am

No rulebook is perfect, and I've found problems with the following as well, but here's a good example of comprehensive rules:
http://www.wa1500.org/documents/rules/Rulebook_WA1500_2011.pdf

Clear definitions, clear equipment rules, clear definitions of firing positions, definitions of courses of fire.
Each course of fire defines number of stages, number of shots, action used, time limits, starting position.
They get the hierarchy of events better without confusing event/course/match as CMP and NRA seem to do.
Tournament > Match > Course of Fire > Stage

Types of Tournament, types of Matches, and all the Courses of Fire are very clear.
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Post by Corregidor on 11/13/2019, 10:59 am

TonyH wrote:
 
“...If you have the expertise to rewrite the rules, so they read well and make better sense, you may want to volunteer your services to the CMP as they go through the process to incorporate all the recent changes to the rules (they are still in draft mode). They may be well open to that and welcome the help…”
 
Two of us from this list made a detailed, honest, good faith effort to address glaring deficiencies in the first iteration of the CMP’s pistol rules when they initially disavowed and unincorporated NRA pistol rules a few years ago. I had hours invested in this. Painstaking detail. You would not believe the childlike, insulting reaction we received from the highest levels of the CMP. Not just once, but repeatedly. I was shocked and frankly disgusted.
 
I challenged Match Directors then and I challenge you now: Read the CMP rules carefully, cover to cover and attempt to run a coherent match. You can’t... and neither can they. Sadly I’ve ceased running any CMP matches for several years now because of this. Can’t tell you how much grief I’ve taken to just run leg matches the “old way” like everybody else is doing…
 
Until the CMP sobers up and provides coherent rules, I’ll remain uninvolved for now, probably forever. If you want to sort this out on your own, go back to at least the 19th-20th Edition CMP rules and compare it to the current rules. Note the de-coupling of the NRA pistol rules generally and specifically the NRA National Match Course (and range commands) from EIC Matches. It’s a huge mess and the CMP leadership couldn’t possibly have reacted in a more insolent, detestable fashion when this was all pointed out to them...years ago.

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Post by Jack H on 11/13/2019, 11:57 am

Some years ago I asked CMP for a chart of the leg point values.  I got it pretty quick.
Being a former math major, curiosity got the better of me and I did the math exactly as in the rule book of the time.  The pure math did not give the same points chart. 
I pointed it out to CMP.  Even emailed with Mr Anderson. 
Sometime later they changed the chart.
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Post by james r chapman on 11/13/2019, 12:05 pm

That’s why NASA didn’t ask NRA or CMP (DCM) for moon trajectory guidance.
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Post by Slartybartfast on 11/13/2019, 12:55 pm

Corregidor wrote:Until the CMP sobers up and provides coherent rules, I’ll remain uninvolved for now, probably forever.
Having been on committees to draft rules, and even a constitution once, I can only say it is a long and painful process. Often devolves into people being adamant their wording be used or getting hung up about an inclusion that they don't see the reasons for. Or worse, they identify a rule that needs to be changed but have no interest in following all the links to different related rules or different scenarios the rule change would affect.
Or people not understanding the difference between the rules book and interpretations or "how-to" documents for rule implementation.
I can only hope that the nasty reaction you received was frustration after such a long committee session and that the people involved have moved on or have mellowed.
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Post by Slartybartfast on 11/14/2019, 8:55 am

Now, I get that serious firearms competition related pages aren't often the most active of forums.
But even given that, the CMP post has seen only 113 views and no comment except CDRT starting the thread and a response to the Model 10 point.
Competitors should be very concerned about rules and rule changes.
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Post by James Hensler on 11/14/2019, 9:51 am

As I read the 45 rules this is how My mind understands them

Service Pistol is the old EIC gun 
4lbs trigger
No optics
No lead 

Match Pistol is NRA Wad Guns
3.5 trigger
Any sights
BUT NO LEAD WAD CUTTERS

Am I right on this?
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Post by Oleg G on 11/14/2019, 10:08 am

I think that lead Wadcutters and/or Semi-Wadcutters are allowed for the Match Pistol (NRA Eqiuvalent) Here is the relevant quote:

4.3 Ammunition 
4.3.1 Pistol Ammunition 
a) Service Pistol. Service Pistol competitors may use any safe ammunition that is loaded with metal-jacketed or metal-plated bullets. Non-jacketed, wad-cutter or lead bullets may not be used. 
b) .22 Rimfire Pistol. Rimfire Pistol competitors may use only 22 cal. rimfire long rifle ammunition with bullets weighing not more than 40 grains. 
c) Center-fire and .45 Caliber Pistol. Competitors with these pistols may use any safe ammunition.

To ME, "any safe ammunition" removes all restrictions placed on the Service Pistol ammo.
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Post by James Hensler on 11/14/2019, 10:21 am

Why does this have to be so hard
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Post by Slartybartfast on 11/14/2019, 3:01 pm

Oleg G wrote:To ME, "any safe ammunition" removes all restrictions placed on the Service Pistol ammo.
No it doesn't. Or at least it shouldn't.
Again, a rule that is complicated and made unclear because of imprecise and inconsistent use of terms.
Possibly even a poor choice of rule placement.
Ammunition restrictions should perhaps be placed with the matches to avoid all possibility of confusion.

The terms in this case are:
- Service Pistol competitors
- Center-fire and .45 Caliber Pistol. Competitors

Seems clear the intended terms should be (using the event names in Table 1):
- Service Pistol Match Course Competitors
- Center-Fire Pistol Match Course and 45 Caliber Pistol Match Course Competitors

Using your Service Pistol in the Service Pistol Match Course makes you a Service Pistol Match Course Competitor. NOT a Center-fire or .45 Caliber Pistol. Competitor.

(and I just noticed that sometimes it's ".45 Caliber " othertimes it's "45 Caliber ", just yet another inconsistency. This is why I like using variables, and a better program than Word to write.)


Last edited by Slartybartfast on 11/14/2019, 3:21 pm; edited 2 times in total
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Post by Slartybartfast on 11/14/2019, 3:12 pm

James Hensler wrote:Why does this have to be so hard
When rules or instructions are clear and concise it's because someone skilled has worked very hard to make them that way.

QUESTION: Where are the "As-Issued Pistol" rules? It's mentioned in the introduction, but nowhere else.
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Post by SteveT on 11/14/2019, 3:23 pm

James Hensler wrote:Why does this have to be so hard

Because we all have different experience, assumptions and thought processes. What seems obvious to one person is nothing but gobbledy-gook to another.

Several years ago I took a job at a supplier, implementing the spec that I had written in my earlier job. What and eye opening experience that was. I had put a lot of effort into it and thought the spec was nearly perfect. When I had to implement the spec I saw it from a completely different perspective.

Another time My customer and I went through a spec line by line... literally looking at each sentence and table entry one at a time. It took weeks. Less than a week after we were done I was working on something and found a blatantly obvious mistake. Somehow we had looked right past it.

It is so hard because it is hard. Very few people appreciate the effort needed to produce good documents. Very few companies and managers are willing to staff and budget for it.
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Post by DA/SA on 11/14/2019, 3:53 pm

Oleg G wrote:a) Service Pistol. Service Pistol competitors may use any safe ammunition that is loaded with metal-jacketed or metal-plated bullets. Non-jacketed, wad-cutter or lead bullets may not be used

That's where it gets a bit fuzzy. With a comma in there it reads as if those are three different things that can't be used, but if that was the case, there should also be a comma after "wad-cutter".

It should be: Non-jacketed wad-cutter or lead bullets may not be used. Then it is a bit clearer as it implies that they may be used if jacketed.

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Post by Wobbley on 11/14/2019, 4:00 pm

The question I have is why is the sentence even in the rule?  The ammunition is already defined in the sentence prior.  All it does is add confusion.
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