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SIG 210-A ANYONE TRYING ONE?

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Post by DHMG1 on 11/22/2019, 3:00 pm

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Post by tovaert on 11/28/2019, 9:46 am

I think if Sig fixed three things, it would be a good value for a target pistol. First, go back to the original Swiss design for the guide rod. The stock design is prone to breakage. This design uses a small machine screw to capture the sliding disc and recoil spring. It would also facilitate trying other springs. Also, if the rod diameter was about 0.005" smaller, you could use existing flat-wire springs for the Sig P938 (~13#) or the CZ P-01 (~16#). The stock spring (made by ISMI) is 10.5#. Second, machine the slide stop pin from a forging rather than MIM. I've tested the pistol in a Ransom rest (with the Target grips in place). I can get 1-1/2" to 2" at 50 yards grips pretty consistently with 147gr Hornady XTPs, 3.3gr to 3.4gr of Alliant e3, 1.100" COAL, Starline brass, Federal 100 primers. This yields about 920-950fps MV. The pistol has a 1:10 twist so the XTP bullet (which I consider a BTHP) groups pretty well, with little recoil, as long as you keep it above 900 fps. BTW...I have never seen Ransom data for the older Swiss (in particular) or German pistols...just a lot of talk about how accurate they are. The only evidence is an old film clip from the '50's(?) showing a test, however, the results weren't that impressive for the cost, and I don't believe it's a valid accuracy test because the pistol is confined to recoil only along a horizontal (e.g., "X") axis. The Ransom rest facilitates recoil in a plane (e.g., "XZ"), which I think is a more realistic test because there is no constraint on inertial effects in the vertical (Z) direction. Just a thought.

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Post by Axehandle on 11/28/2019, 9:51 am

They look good and feel good to me.   However,  it bothers me to see the hammer cam back when I pull the trigger so I passed....  I'll remain happy with my paper puncher 38 super 1911s. Smile

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Post by Slartybartfast on 11/28/2019, 10:44 am

There does seem to be a number of P210 models or at least a number of different ways to refer to what seems to be two models that makes things confusing.
Looking my side of the border I can find the P210 Target and P210 Super Target (made in Germany).
Trigger weight info seems to be 4lb for the Target and 2.9lb for the Super Target.
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Post by Outthere on 11/28/2019, 11:07 am

Slartybartfast wrote:There does seem to be a number of P210 models or at least a number of different ways to refer to what seems to be two models that makes things confusing.
Looking my side of the border I can find the P210 Target and P210 Super Target (made in Germany).
Trigger weight info seems to be 4lb for the Target and 2.9lb for the Super Target.
What's "Sig Sauer High Definition Gun Grease" that's included with it?
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Post by Slartybartfast on 11/28/2019, 1:51 pm

Outthere wrote:

What's "Sig Sauer High Definition Gun Grease" that's included with it?
A generic lubricant repackaged and sold as snake oil at 1000% of the bulk price.
Same as every other firearms lubricant.
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Post by zanemoseley on 11/28/2019, 2:20 pm

High definition grease huh. Is it 4k lol.

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Post by DA/SA on 11/28/2019, 4:39 pm

I had almost forgotten about the great grease war...

Sig used to assemble pistols using TW-25B and each pistol came with a small "Ketchup pack" of it in the box. Then one day Sig switched to Lucas Extreme Gun Grease enclosed with new pistols. It was claimed that the Lucas grease was the finest gun grease on the planet...and then someone posted the Lucas TDS's for the Extreme Gun Grease and Lucas Marine Grease along with samples of each. The TDS sheets and samples appeared to be identical. The Gun Grease is $8.99 for a 1 oz tube and the marine Grease is $6.48 for a 14 oz tube. The multi page argument ensued with some claiming they were one and the same, and others claiming that even though they appear to be the same, they are completely different...

IIRC, Lucas was co-sponsor of the Sig shooting team at the time.

I'm not intending to start another lube war. I just found this one to be very interesting at the time.
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Post by tonton christobal on 11/29/2019, 12:28 am

http://www.pistolenspezialist.de/epages/62174389.sf/de_DE/?ObjectPath=/Shops/62174389

http://www.pistolenspezialist.de/epages/62174389.sf/de_DE/?ObjectPath=/Shops/62174389/Products/887
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Post by radjag on 11/29/2019, 4:28 am

OK. So these upgrades offered by "Berty" in Germany are certainly interesting. But, am I correct in understanding that they are mostly relating to reliability and longevity, rather that accuracy?


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Post by tovaert on 11/29/2019, 6:33 am

Slartybartfast wrote:There does seem to be a number of P210 models or at least a number of different ways to refer to what seems to be two models that makes things confusing.
Looking my side of the border I can find the P210 Target and P210 Super Target (made in Germany).
Trigger weight info seems to be 4lb for the Target and 2.9lb for the Super Target.
Agree. Sig calls the new American made version "P210 Target" per their website. There is really no "P210A" designation anywhere...I think it just caught on as a way to distinguish it from the German-made "P210 Target", "P210 Super Target", and "P210 Legend Target".

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Post by tovaert on 11/29/2019, 6:46 am

If anyone is interested, message me I'll send you the heavier trigger return spring for $4 (PP F&F to ghkly@hotmail.com). I'm only asking for $4 because I spent $80 (two $40 minimum orders) with a spring company, before I got the right spring, so I'm trying to get a little of my money back. I have about a dozen of them. Changing the trigger return spring is not too difficult. I will post instructions.

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Post by zanemoseley on 11/29/2019, 10:31 am

tovaert wrote:
Slartybartfast wrote:There does seem to be a number of P210 models or at least a number of different ways to refer to what seems to be two models that makes things confusing.
Looking my side of the border I can find the P210 Target and P210 Super Target (made in Germany).
Trigger weight info seems to be 4lb for the Target and 2.9lb for the Super Target.
Agree. Sig calls the new American made version "P210 Target" per their website. There is really no "P210A" designation anywhere...I think it just caught on as a way to distinguish it from the German-made "P210 Target", "P210 Super Target", and "P210 Legend Target".

Look up some auctions on GB, Sig puts 210A as part of their PN on the box. 210A-9-TGT is the full PN of the target model.

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Post by tovaert on 11/29/2019, 7:20 pm

zanemoseley wrote:
tovaert wrote:
Slartybartfast wrote:There does seem to be a number of P210 models or at least a number of different ways to refer to what seems to be two models that makes things confusing.
Looking my side of the border I can find the P210 Target and P210 Super Target (made in Germany).
Trigger weight info seems to be 4lb for the Target and 2.9lb for the Super Target.
Agree. Sig calls the new American made version "P210 Target" per their website. There is really no "P210A" designation anywhere...I think it just caught on as a way to distinguish it from the German-made "P210 Target", "P210 Super Target", and "P210 Legend Target".

Look up some auctions on GB, Sig puts 210A as part of their PN on the box. 210A-9-TGT is the full PN of the target model.
Good to know...thanks. So they seem to be following a serial number "pattern."

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Post by diopter on 11/30/2019, 6:41 am

I love my Swiss made military Sig 210-2's. I had adjustable Swiss sights put on one and target grips.
SIG 210-A ANYONE TRYING ONE? - Page 2 P1011097
SIG 210-A ANYONE TRYING ONE? - Page 2 P1011096
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Post by Slartybartfast on 12/2/2019, 8:59 am

DA/SA wrote:I had almost forgotten about the great grease war...
Greases, oils, and additives are the ultimate example of fleecing the easily excitable hordes.
Any automotive supply store has an aisle filled with bottles that are all mostly re-branded methyl-alcohol or more-or-less the same grade of lubricant.

"This is a true firearms grease" says the Lucas sheet. But what extreme operating concerns does a firearm see that requires some special grease? Read an article that covered the temperatures and pressures seen by engines and those seen by firearms. The vast majority of what is written about firearms lubricants is simply overblown hype. And the ultra high price pays for profit, marketing, and product (in that order and in diminishing orders of magnitude).
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SIG 210-A ANYONE TRYING ONE? - Page 2 Empty SIG P210 - Berty Custom Parts

Post by radjag on 12/2/2019, 4:42 pm

tonton christobal wrote:http://www.pistolenspezialist.de/epages/62174389.sf/de_DE/?ObjectPath=/Shops/62174389

http://www.pistolenspezialist.de/epages/62174389.sf/de_DE/?ObjectPath=/Shops/62174389/Products/887

I recently acquired a SIG P210A-9-TGT (The Target version of the P210 currently produced by SIG Sauer in USA) and am interested in the custom parts produced by Harald Berty in Germany as shown on his website which was introduced to the forum by Tonton Christobal.

I heard from another forum member that an email enquiry to the Berty website went unanswered. Happens that I have some good friends in Germany, I asked them to contact Mr. Berty directly by phone and email. I was particularly interested in these parts:-

Recoil Assembly - EUR 145
SIG 210-A ANYONE TRYING ONE? - Page 2 Berty_12

Trigger Tuning Kit - EUR 113
SIG 210-A ANYONE TRYING ONE? - Page 2 Berty_13

Sliding Nut. - EUR39
SIG 210-A ANYONE TRYING ONE? - Page 2 P210_b11
Mr. Berty has advised that his products are only suitable for the Swiss design P210 and its direct variants produced in Switzerland or Germany and he does not advise "fitting" his parts to other models. Pity!

If anyone happens to know whether the recoil assembly and trigger springs from a German P210-6 will fit a USA P210-9 I would be very interested to hear about that. 

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Post by DA/SA on 12/2/2019, 6:42 pm

You might also verify if the parts can be exported to the USA.

I was trying to get some parts for a P226 X5 from Germany and all was going fine until I let them know I was in the US and there was no reply from then on... (wasn't Berty, but a couple of others)
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Post by diopter on 12/2/2019, 9:15 pm

https://www.wysswaffen.ch/produktgruppen/sig-210/
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Post by radjag on 12/4/2019, 1:02 am

Dear Diopter,

I sent an email to WyssWaffen in Switzerland. They immediately replied, but are not able to sell direct to USA at present. No idea whether that is simply that they are not yet set up for direct sales or whether it is due to restrictions on shipping firearm related stuff to USA. No idea whether that also applies to Canada.

I've ordered other stuff from various vendors in EU in the past, so maybe it just varies from vendor to vendor.

I have a way to get the Berty items from Germany, but I need to discover whether parts designed for the Swiss/German P210 models will fit my USA P210-9 before I place an order.

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Post by diopter on 12/4/2019, 8:38 am

Restrictions on shipping Some firearms related parts. Same here to Canada.
Importers would need to be licensed in Canada. So individuals cannot.
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Post by Slartybartfast on 12/4/2019, 9:41 am

diopter wrote:Restrictions on shipping Some firearms related parts. Same here to Canada.
Importers would need to be licensed in Canada. So individuals cannot.
Actually much more difficult to import parts and guns into the USA than Canada.
In Canada, the importer of receivers and complete firearms needs to have a PAL for the class of firearm being imported and the receiving warehouse and/or shipping company within Canada needs to be licensed. But it can be done by an individual. USA requires an FFL and far more paperwork.
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Post by zanemoseley on 2/16/2020, 12:23 pm

Figured I would resurect this thread. I just got a smoking deal on a P210A Standard, $969 including shipping, no CC fees and they even did free layaway. The only difference in the Standard and the Target is the Standard lacks the front slide serrations, has smaller grips and a fixed rear sight. Sig confirmed all other parts and fitment are the same.

I just picked it up last week, so far I'm very impressed. I was truthfully a bit leery of what the quality would be like. The trigger is very nice but is more of a 2 stage trigger than a single stage like a 1911, it takes a couple pounds to get back to the wall. As mentioned above the hammer does cam a bit as its being pulled but I think that's intentional. My trigger is about 3.25 - 3.5 pounds and has a very nice break. The trigger is up there with my CZ Custom Accushadow if not better.

The slide to frame fit seems very nice for a factory pistol, it's buttery smooth, you can tell the finish they use has some self lubricative properties.

The lockup is actually pretty nice. If you ride the slide home slowly you can feel the barrel lockup, it not just a "dead" lockup with no feel.

EGW makes a red dot mount that fits the Standard model. There will be a bit of a gap up front between the mount and the slide. I've got one being installed now. Will post pics soon.

So far this appears to be a bargain at $970 but don't expect it to be up to the standards of a $3k 1911.

https://www.egwguns.com/viper-venom-sig-sauer-p220-229-320-sight-mount-fits-burris-fastfire-and-docter

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Post by PhotoEscape on 2/16/2020, 2:59 pm

radjag wrote:

Mr. Berty has advised that his products are only suitable for the Swiss design P210 and its direct variants produced in Switzerland or Germany and he does not advise "fitting" his parts to other models. Pity!

If anyone happens to know whether the recoil assembly and trigger springs from a German P210-6 will fit a USA P210-9 I would be very interested to hear about that. 
Roy,
The answer to your question is NEGATIVE.  See picture below, left to right -6, -9Legend - Germany, -9 USA.  Recoil assembly on USA model is much shorter then on two others.  I didn't pull trigger groups, but I would recommend to adhere to Mr. Berty's advice.

APSIG 210-A ANYONE TRYING ONE? - Page 2 P210-g10
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Post by tonton christobal on 2/18/2020, 4:36 am

https://www.gunfactory.ch/index.htm

https://www.rochcustom.com/

http://www.waffen-dobler.ch/
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Post by tovaert on 2/18/2020, 7:54 am

The biggest problem with that shorter P210A-9 (American made) guide rod is that it breaks easily. The swaged button on the muzzle end (that retains the spring and sliding washer) snaps off. Many owners have complained about this, and Sig has done nothing as far as re-design is concerned. It's been a problem for over two years. Replacements can take months to arrive. I redesigned the guide rod and had a couple of them machined. Mine is one piece and uses a button head cap screw to retain the spring and sliding washer. After inserting it in the slide (before firing), I remove the cap screw. Then re-attach the screw when I want to remove the slide for cleaning, etc. Nothing to break off. My design is about 0.005" smaller in diameter, which allows me to use the factory spring (about 10.5#), the Sig P938 spring (about 13#), and the CZ P-01 spring (16#, green spring in photo). Note that since that rod is shorter than the Swiss/German rods, if you want to increase the spring weight, you have to use flatwire springs. I've also put together an instruction sheet for changing the trigger return spring (e.g., to a heavier one), which gets you over 4# for CMP service pistol. Here is the link:
https://www.dropbox.com/s/ev3bpwkw62sxuct/Installing%20Trigger%20Return%20Spring%20on%20Sig%20Sauer%20P210A_Rev1.pdf?dl=0
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