Lead Removal in .45acp 1911

Have not had this issue before but with a new gun I am seeing some leading in the throat area of my .45. Bore scope shows no tool marks in the affected part of the bore. In the past used the Lewis tool with success but in a match barrel I hesitate to use it. Worrying for nothing? Go chemical?
Thanks, Mike

I use chore boy scrubber and Kroil .

I assume the copper version. Good idea!
Thanks!

watercam wrote:I assume the copper version. Good idea!
Thanks!

Yes in a brush.

After you get the lead out, you might want to use some JB Bore paste followed by Kroil and repeat several times.

Thanks, already done!

nothing wrong with the old Lewis lead remover ..

a bit unusual to see leading in a 45 unless the barrel throat is not correctly done.

SW-52 wrote:I use chore boy scrubber and Kroil .

Check with a magnet first. I had some stick to a magnet. After light scrubbing with #9 and a brush I let soak in Kroil for an hour. The lead will fall out with a patch.

Bill

jglenn21 wrote:a bit unusual to see leading in a 45 unless the barrel throat is not correctly done.

Not true!

Alloy hardness affects melting point greatly.  Melting point usually falls as alloying elements are added.

Firing the round is a primary cause of leading:

• Powder gas temperatures are around or above the melting point of most materials, and;
  
• Chamber pressures are well above normal.  21,000 PSI for normal loads, 23,000 for +P. 
  

Materials which are solid at room temperature behave differently at elevated temperatures.  Change the pressure, and behaviors change more.  Keep in mind that even though peak temperatures and times are measured in fractions of a millisecond, it doesn't take much vaporized lead per shot to result in fouling buildup.  Cures to reducing or eliminating the buildup:

• Change bullets to a softer type.  Remember, lower alloy content may mean a higher melting point;
  
• Add an antifouling compound to the bullet or powder.  Older types of these compounds were added to the powder or primer.  They worked by reducing the ability of a fouling material to adhere to the barrel;
  
• Add a physical barrier between the lead and the powder.  Reduce the temperature of the lead by adding a barrier between it and the powder gas.  Copper jackets, gas checks, and other barriers (i.e., plastic, paper, or cardboard wads; plastic jackets) are examples;
  
• Add chemicals to reduce the ability of the powder to melt the lead.  Traditional means were adding waxes to the powder, modern types include wrapping powder charges in plastic jackets.  There is some thought that molybdenum disulfide ("moly") and tungsten disulfide ("Danzac") act as flame temperature reducers;
  
• Change to a cooler burning power.  Lower burn temperature = less melting of bullet, and;
  
• Reduce chamber pressure  Change from a fast burning, high temperature powder to a longer burning one with a lower flame temperature.
  

Having removed lead fouling from a pistol barrel, I cannot endorse using a Lewis lead remover.  Even after multiple passes, lead traces remain in the bore.  Electrochemical removal is far more effective - try it.  Clean the bore with a Lewis, then use a Foul-Out unit (or homemade equivalent).  The amount of material removed by an electrochemical system is an eye opener.  NOTE:  There are reports that aggressive use of an electrochemical system may result in pitted bores.  To avoid this, clean the barrel thoroughly using conventional cleaners, then electrochemically clean no more than twice.  Neutralize all remaining traces of the electrochemical solution, then lightly oil the bore to prevent rust.

Sometimes you run across useful containers for soaking barrels in while you clean and lube the rest of a 1911...

Asa Yam wrote:

jglenn21 wrote:a bit unusual to see leading in a 45 unless the barrel throat is not correctly done.

Not true!

Alloy hardness affects melting point greatly.  Melting point usually falls as alloying elements are added.

Firing the round is a primary cause of leading:

• Powder gas temperatures are around or above the melting point of most materials, and;
  
• Chamber pressures are well above normal.  21,000 PSI for normal loads, 23,000 for +P. 
  

Materials which are solid at room temperature behave differently at elevated temperatures.  Change the pressure, and behaviors change more.  Keep in mind that even though peak temperatures and times are measured in fractions of a millisecond, it doesn't take much vaporized lead per shot to result in fouling buildup.  Cures to reducing or eliminating the buildup:

• Change bullets to a softer type.  Remember, lower alloy content may mean a higher melting point;
  
• Add an antifouling compound to the bullet or powder.  Older types of these compounds were added to the powder or primer.  They worked by reducing the ability of a fouling material to adhere to the barrel;
  
• Add a physical barrier between the lead and the powder.  Reduce the temperature of the lead by adding a barrier between it and the powder gas.  Copper jackets, gas checks, and other barriers (i.e., plastic, paper, or cardboard wads; plastic jackets) are examples;
  
• Add chemicals to reduce the ability of the powder to melt the lead.  Traditional means were adding waxes to the powder, modern types include wrapping powder charges in plastic jackets.  There is some thought that molybdenum disulfide ("moly") and tungsten disulfide ("Danzac") act as flame temperature reducers;
  
• Change to a cooler burning power.  Lower burn temperature = less melting of bullet, and;
  
• Reduce chamber pressure  Change from a fast burning, high temperature powder to a longer burning one with a lower flame temperature.
  

Having removed lead fouling from a pistol barrel, I cannot endorse using a Lewis lead remover.  Even after multiple passes, lead traces remain in the bore.  Electrochemical removal is far more effective - try it.  Clean the bore with a Lewis, then use a Foul-Out unit (or homemade equivalent).  The amount of material removed by an electrochemical system is an eye opener.  NOTE:  There are reports that aggressive use of an electrochemical system may result in pitted bores.  To avoid this, clean the barrel thoroughly using conventional cleaners, then electrochemically clean no more than twice.  Neutralize all remaining traces of the electrochemical solution, then lightly oil the bore to prevent rust.

Hi Asa! I did not know you resided here as well! Great info, straight from a Metallurgical Engineer's keyboard. My velocities are in the lower range - about 685 fps with Zero 185 gr. SWCHP. Frankly I had mixed jacketed and lead bullets that day. Perhaps the copper jacket material caught some lead when I changed loads as I did not clean in between. Will test some tomorrow.
Thanks, Mike Thomas

If you shoot lead and think there’s no lead in your barrel, you should take a look at it through bore scope. I know I was surprised.
At Camp Perry this past year, a group of us were discussing this subject. Two shooters who had no previous contact with each other claimed that they used a cigar lighter to shoot flame through the bore while holding the barrel in their bare hand to prevent it from getting too hot. Immediately after heating, they used a bore brush on it. This was the first I heard of this technique and I’ve been around a while. Any thoughts or comments?

Sounds doable, not sure by me though! I would fry my own hand for sure!
Perhaps the other folks have done it.

Be sure to check bore for pimentos before firing!

Sa-tevp wrote:Sometimes you run across useful containers for soaking barrels in while you clean and lube the rest of a 1911...

if you coat your Zero hpswc swaged bullets with 45-45-10 you issues will go away..  I do this to all my swaged bullets and it really helps. Zero/Magnus or the old Star bullets.

never found any reason to do it with commercial cast bullets. most commercial casters use the same alloy. 2/6/92  sometimes called hardball alloy.. it will be around 16 on Brinell scale which is plenty hard for our velocities..   they also actually use that alloy to do the swaged bullets but they come out softer..

Sa-tevp wrote:Sometimes you run across useful containers for soaking barrels in while you clean and lube the rest of a 1911...

And this is how you convert a semi-auto 1911 to the "Martini action"...

On a serious note, I never had any leading in my 1911s, but a serious leading problem with my S&W M52 when I was using Zero bullets. Switching to Remington bullets made a lot of difference. Lewis is a great tool, too.

I had the same problem with Zero 148 HBWC ammo in my M52. I went with Magnus swaged bullets tumbled in 45-45-10. I also like my Lewis Lead Remover. There are bunch brass tools on hand for scraping if needed.

So... Kroil soak, LLR, brass scrapers until I get the load right to stop the leading.

Copy that!

I have leading problems with my 38 HBWC from Zero.  I loaded a box of 500.  Cant' wait till they are gone.    I use the all copper chore boy to get the lead out.  Speer don't lead in my gun.

Everything else I shoot are Brazos coated.

David

Sigh... Well, I only have 800 of them left! Will look at Brazo's.

Go to white label lubes and get their premixed 45-45-10. A qt. Will last you a while.. tumble the bullets with the lube as is and you'll be fine.

Sa-tevp wrote:I had the same problem with Zero 148 HBWC ammo in my M52. I went with Magnus swaged bullets tumbled in 45-45-10. 

Doesn't Magnus make the 148 HBWC's for Zero?

Magnus only casts bullets, pretty sure all of their swaged bullets are done by Zero. Terry has confirmed some are before when I asked.

Thanks!

I had it backwards, but was pretty sure they were the same bullet

I have had 45 swaged bullets lead practically every 45 I've ever owned or shot. Typically the bottom of the throat. Believe it or not it doesn't seem to affect accuracy from RR. Zero hbwc have leaded my 38's to the high heavens. I will never use those bullets again.
Jon