.38 sp HBWC proud of the case or not.

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Post by Al W. on 1/1/2020, 10:18 am

Hello folks.
This is a question directed to the experienced .38sp shooters that reload.
I have a small collection of S&W firearms that chamber .38sp cartridges .
A model 52 which must have flush mounted projectiles and 2 revolvers , a model 15 and model 14.
I've been loading for the 52 lately and have run off a few hundred of the flush mounted rounds for the 52.
Thats all good.
My question pertains to the use of the flush mounted HBWC in the revolvers.
I know that plenty of factory ammo mounts WC flush to the case so it can be used in any handgun configuration ,but I have been told
by some old timers at my range that it's better to mount the WC proud of the case for the revolvers.
So I dialed my Redding seating die for  about .035-.040 proud and have been running that through the revolvers with good results.
So I guess my long winded question here is ; what do you folks do with your revolver loads ?
Do you mount flush, do you mount proud of the case , what are the results you are seeing with the variations ?
My understanding is that mounting proud of the case takes some stress off of the forcing cone as the projectile is closer to leaving the cylinder at 
the time of ignition .
But what do I know.
Wondering if I should just mount all my WC flush and let it go at that ....
Of course I could just mount one of my pistols into the ransom rest at the range and run some loads through one of my revolvers and see what the results are , but I know some of you have already done that , so , if you would , please , share your wisdom .
Thanks !
Al W.
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Post by Wobbley on 1/1/2020, 10:22 am

I seat flush.  As a matter of fact, if it is 38 Special that I reload, it is A flush seated Wadcutte and in my normal load(s) of 2.7 or 2.8 Bullseye.  My reasoning is that no matter what gun I pick it will shoot that ammo.
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Post by Virgil Kane on 1/1/2020, 10:40 am

I have an old H&G #50 button nose mold that I use for my revolvers.  It actually has a crimp groove on it and I have found that by seating to the crimp groove on that #50 and crimping lightly gives me better accuracy with my revolvers that flush seating a HBWC out of the same gun.  Cast out of range scrap they do good, got some #50's from a cast bullet manufacturer and they were terrible.  Lots of wrinkles in those and cast out of to hard a material.  Problem for me is I hate casting so I settle for my mediocre results from flush seated WC's .  Good enough for my below mediocre iron sighted revolver shooting.
I do seat flush for my 52 and it's easy to keep those and the #50's separate, I just mark the flush seated ones with a marker across the base of the rim.  52's fling brass and it's easy at matches to identify the ones that miss my brass catcher. Revolvers don't fling brassso no need to mark those.

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Post by Al W. on 1/1/2020, 12:21 pm

Virgil Kane wrote:I have an old H&G #50 button nose mold that I use for my revolvers.  It actually has a crimp groove on it and I have found that by seating to the crimp groove on that #50 and crimping lightly gives me better accuracy with my revolvers that flush seating a HBWC out of the same gun.  

Virgil
Whats the measurement on the projectile ?
How far out of the case does it protrude ?
Al W.
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Post by Al W. on 1/1/2020, 12:25 pm

Wobbley wrote:I seat flush.  As a matter of fact, if it is 38 Special that I reload, it is A flush seated Wadcutte and in my normal load(s) of 2.7 or 2.8 Bullseye.  My reasoning is that no matter what gun I pick it will shoot that ammo.
Yes, I think lots of loaders do the same .
I've been taking the other approach and tailoring the rounds for 52 or Revolver.
Its not much trouble , but requires that you box the rounds separately .
Curious if anyone has quantified the improvement if any in mounting proud of the case, and how proud.
But convenience  is huge , especially when your loading for practice not competition .
Al W.
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Post by Deerspy on 1/1/2020, 12:32 pm

I load double ended  with a crimp grove at end of case for my cast lead and HBWC swaged flush 
don't know why but cast seam to work better and less leading when loaded this way, I think it is because harder cast work better with less chamber pressure. for revolver

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Post by chopper on 1/1/2020, 1:31 pm

Al, I was using a taper crimp on HBWC and seating them flush using 2.7 BE. I got a little leading at the chambers then I tried tightening the crimp helped some with the leading, then increased to 2.9 and that helped with the groups.
 This fall I've quit shooting my 45s, keep having problems surfacing, so they're sleeping in the safe. I'm having lots of fun with the revolver, it's new territory for me to use it in matches. I did change my load to 2.8 W231 and went to a tighter roll crimp on the solid area of the bullet, so they're proud of the case about a 1/16", hell, they shoot great and no leading. Don't ask me about stats on this load I have none, they go in the black real nice.
 
 Stan

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Post by LenV on 1/1/2020, 2:16 pm

I load them flush. Like Wobbley I think they should all be loaded for the 52 and they will shoot in any 38 I own , or 357. I spent some time on the range and took Zins challenge with my 14-6. I tried to stand there at 25 yds and put 50 rounds in the 10 ring. If you have all the time in the world it should be easy. Right? I was using flush seated WC for the exercise. I failed by the way. I ran out of patience around 40 and started squirting them all over.

.38 sp HBWC proud of the case or not. 38_spe10
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Post by chopper on 1/1/2020, 2:21 pm

Len I wish I could squirt so well. Good job.

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Post by Al W. on 1/1/2020, 2:26 pm

LenV wrote:I load them flush. Like Wobbley I think they should all be loaded for the 52 and they will shoot in any 38 I own , or 357. I spent some time on the range and took Zins challenge with my 14-6. I tried to stand there at 25 yds and put 50 rounds in the 10 ring. If you have all the time in the world it should be easy. Right? I was using flush seated WC for the exercise. I failed by the way. I ran out of patience around 40 and started squirting them all over.
The only bad result with flush mounting WC has been with DEWC which my revolvers don't much like. I just shot up a bunch of them I had loaded a few years ago.
Might run a few flush through the 14 and 15 and see what's up.
I'm shooting Zero over 2.8gr BE. Very standard stuff.
I won't be putting 50 in the 10 ring at 25 yds anytime soon , I'm shooting iron sights and I'm like a hundred Very Happy
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Post by Virgil Kane on 1/1/2020, 2:42 pm

They are sized .358. Total length of the projectile is .575 and the projectile protrusion when seated is.130 including the button nose and lubed with White label BAC crimped to .368 in Remington brass in the crimp groove OAL is 1.725
Like any other firearm some shoot better than others with the same projectile.  My M-14 loves the Lyman 358311 RN but doesn't shoot the Mag-Tec 158 gr. RN worth a hoot.  Doesn't like HBWC's either.  Funny that it shoots the Lee 105 gr. SWC pretty good at 25 yards.  My M-52 is accurate but I have yet to find any WC or HBWC that doesn't lead it up like crazy after about 25 shots. Just shows that every gun is different
Thee best HBWC was the Remington if you can find any.

Virgil

BTW I set the barrel back in my M-14 and set the cylinder gap to .004, re-cut the forcing cone to 11 degrees, took care of end shake and straightened out the yoke that was off center a bit.  Probably should have Taylor throated it while I was at it but I didn't want to buy a new reamer, probably would have helped with the WC and HBWC

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Post by Al W. on 1/1/2020, 3:01 pm

Virgil Kane wrote:They are sized .358. Total length of the projectile is .575 and the projectile protrusion when seated is.130 including the button nose and lubed with White label BAC .
Thanks , interesting. .130 . OK
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Post by Virgil Kane on 1/1/2020, 6:12 pm

Al W. wrote:
Virgil Kane wrote:They are sized .358. Total length of the projectile is .575 and the projectile protrusion when seated is.130 including the button nose and lubed with White label BAC .
Thanks , interesting. .130 . OK



I should also mention that when I size them I do NOT run the front driving band into the sizer. That front band is left un-sized and run into the sizer to just below the crimp grove. Doing this I can drop the WC into my cylinders and it will stop on the cylinder throat. I then can measure the distance from the front of the WC in the cylinder to the end of the cylinder and get my seating depth minus .010 for lead and carbon buildup in the throats.  Works for me but I'm only a lowly SS,YMMV.


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Post by BE Mike on 1/1/2020, 8:16 pm

A lot of PPC matches have been won over the years with flush seated .38 SPL 148 gr. HBWC ammo in revolvers. Why argue with success?Very Happy
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Post by LenV on 1/1/2020, 8:20 pm

I resize full length. I use Magnus or Zero (same bullet) 148gr HBWC. These are swaged lead bullets. I don't worry about seating them flush because the skirts on those hollow base bullets have a lot of room for give in them. They narrow down to fit in the case when seated and expand to fill the barrel when fired. I wish they were legal for DR but the 158 gr Magtec RN are a good substitute. They are soft enough the little cupped base on them works a lot like the HBWC.

My 148's
.38 sp HBWC proud of the case or not. Dscf0836


My 158's
.38 sp HBWC proud of the case or not. Dscf0759


The 158's at 50 yds (off sand bag) Testing group in 14-6
.38 sp HBWC proud of the case or not. 38_spe11
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Post by Dcforman on 1/1/2020, 9:13 pm

Jerry Keefer's recommended load for revolvers was HBWC loaded just proud of the case (1.175"), 2.7-2.9 WST, with a 3.72 taper crimp. He knew a thing or two.

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Post by james r chapman on 1/2/2020, 4:59 am

.38 sp HBWC proud of the case or not. 75216910So does Precision Delta have a few wins under their belt.


Last edited by james r chapman on 1/4/2020, 7:48 pm; edited 2 times in total
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Post by Al W. on 1/4/2020, 9:40 am

Well I'm having some fun.
I made up some rounds.
I ran 24 of the HWBC sized specifically for my 4" M15
I used the cylinder to set the projectile in a test case and duplicated the setting with my seating die.
Those were quite proud of the case and grouped very well in that gun, but not surprisingly the POI was quite different than It had been when shooting the .030 proud rounds I had been running.
The flush rounds and the slightly proud rounds seemed to function the same , I could perceive  no differences in grouping or POI between the flush and the .030 proud rounds.
The custom sized rounds on the other hand grouped much better, but are so customized that it becomes a bother. I guess I could run off a series of loads sized for my various guns, but I ain't retired yet !
Thus far and to , veer way off topic , the most accurate round I've been shooting has been a 125gr lead RNFP over 2.8 BE with an OAL of 1.455. Guess those are most used for cowboy action shooting. Thats the most repeatable accuracy I've been able to get. My M14 6" operates excellently with those at least indoors. On an outdoor range with a bit of a breeze I don't guess they would do much good . But indoors=Glory...
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Post by LenV on 1/4/2020, 10:14 am

Al, as long as your veering off course. The most accurate round I have found for all my 38's is with Hornady 110gr XTP bullets and 4.2 gr Bullseye. The bullet is fast enough it clears the barrel before follow thru/recoil becomes a problem and light enough that recoil is not a problem. Recoil is so light you can use the load for sustained fire. Just another .02.

.38 sp HBWC proud of the case or not. Hornad10
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Post by Al W. on 1/4/2020, 10:41 am

LenV wrote:Al, as long as your veering off course. The most accurate round I have found for all my 38's is with Hornady 110gr XTP bullets and 4.2 gr Bullseye. The bullet is fast enough it clears the barrel before follow thru/recoil becomes a problem and light enough that recoil is not a problem. Recoil is so light you can use the load for sustained fire. Just another .02.
Thanks for the reply.
Those light projectiles are something, for sure.
What are you setting your OAL ?
Guess the higher powder charge would mitigate the effects of a draft.
I go down to my outdoor range in NC and find that my game is way off when compared to the indoor results I have up north.
Could be the altitude Smile
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Post by LenV on 1/4/2020, 10:43 am

Roll crimp in the Cannelure.
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Post by Wobbley on 1/4/2020, 12:21 pm

Here’s a video of what happens when you seat proud.  With the caveat that this is only one set of data.  

https://youtu.be/RdCOIqLidh0

But this might indicate that, for target loads and applications, powder burn efficiencies are adversely affected by seating the bullets out.
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Post by Al W. on 1/4/2020, 2:54 pm

Wobbley wrote:Here’s a video of what happens when you seat proud.  With the caveat that this is only one set of data.  

https://youtu.be/RdCOIqLidh0

But this might indicate that, for target loads and applications, powder burn efficiencies are adversely affected by seating the bullets out.
Yes , pretty much exactly what you would expect .
Case pressure=velocity
I was looking for a deviation in accuracy or improvement.
In the more or less normal rounds there was no change in accuracy when comparing flush to .030 proud.
Thanks for that link !
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Post by Jon Eulette on 1/4/2020, 3:21 pm

LenV wrote:Al, as long as your veering off course. The most accurate round I have found for all my 38's is with Hornady 110gr XTP bullets and 4.2 gr Bullseye. The bullet is fast enough it clears the barrel before follow thru/recoil becomes a problem and light enough that recoil is not a problem. Recoil is so light you can use the load for sustained fire. Just another .02.

My police buddies who shoot PPC 50yds use 110 xtp. Extremely great shooting bullet! Phenomenal bullet.
Jon
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Post by Al W. on 1/4/2020, 4:26 pm

Jon Eulette wrote:
LenV wrote:Al, as long as your veering off course. The most accurate round I have found for all my 38's is with Hornady 110gr XTP bullets and 4.2 gr Bullseye. The bullet is fast enough it clears the barrel before follow thru/recoil becomes a problem and light enough that recoil is not a problem. Recoil is so light you can use the load for sustained fire. Just another .02.

My police buddies who shoot PPC 50yds use 110 xtp. Extremely great shooting bullet! Phenomenal bullet.
Jon
I shot some 115 Jacketed HP from Zero.
They shot well. 
The 125s in lead do very nicely and with the low powder charge they are a fun round to shoot.
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