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Post by jwax on 1/5/2020, 1:12 pm

What are the pros/cons of using Remington Nos. 1 1/2 Small Pistol Primers vs. 5 1/2 Small Pistol Primers?
These are lighting a 2.8 g charge of WST, and using a 148 g HBWC in a S&W Model 52-2.

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Post by gregbenner on 1/5/2020, 1:28 pm

I thought the 5 1/2 were magnum.  Definitely not needed for 2.8 g of WST, but I’m not aware of any negatives? I’ve used magnum primers when I didn’t have regular ones, with no negatives noted.

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Post by Ed Hall on 1/5/2020, 3:35 pm

The following was not proven and did not involve a Model 52, but was the only explanation a few of us came up with for a wild day at the Nationals many years ago:

I had some HBWC skirts left behind when using magnum primers in a Model 15 S&W revolver with 38 cases and 2.8gr BE.  The subsequent rounds fired produced enhanced recoil and two separate prints (per round) on the target(s) - one quite high and one quite low, as in some outside the 5, some just in.

It was concluded that the first string, which seemed to have gone well, had actually left some skirts within the chambers, but ahead of the 38 sized case rim.  The second and third (refire, due to excessive holes) had the enhanced recoils and extra holes.  A subsequent check of the gun showed no telltale signs of anything being amiss and I never explored further, so I don't know if our conclusion was correct.  I also never used HBWC or magnum primers in the 38 cases after that experience.

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Post by dronning on 1/5/2020, 3:59 pm

Along with what Ed said.  
We did some .38 Special light load testing with Remington magnum primers and SWC bullets using a revolver.  All loads were trickle charged to eliminate variation.  There was a significant difference in variation in the FPS, if I remember right the magnum primer had some rounds that were 75-100 FPS faster, but the strange thing it wasn't consistent, maybe 2 or 3 out of 10 were "hot".
- Dave
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Post by BE Mike on 1/5/2020, 4:29 pm

jwax wrote:What are the pros/cons of using Remington Nos. 1 1/2 Small Pistol Primers vs. 5 1/2 Small Pistol Primers?
These are lighting a 2.8 g charge of WST, and using a 148 g HBWC in a S&W Model 52-2.
I've used the Rem. 5 1/2 primers to load 9mm with Power Pistol. The charges are around 6 grains. They seemed to work well for that. The Remington primers did seem to stand higher in the primer cup on my Dillon 550B and therefore would cause occasional hang ups. Winchester WSP are my go-to primers for most target loads for 9mm and .38 SPL. I never have had a problems. I always use the WSP in .38 SPL loads with a Zero 148 gr. HBWC over an appropriate charge of Bullseye or HP-38/ Winchester 231. They seem to feed well through the Dillon 550B primer system, too.


Last edited by BE Mike on 1/6/2020, 4:23 pm; edited 1 time in total
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Post by jwax on 1/6/2020, 1:18 pm

Thanks all! Nice to hear from you Ed! Are you suggesting that the 5 1/2 primer contributes to fragmenting the HBWC?
I will stay with the 1 1/2 primers.

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Post by PhotoEscape on 1/6/2020, 3:58 pm

Not to highjack this thread, but I have a question regarding using rifle primers in pistol loads.  Or to be exact large rifle primers, as I have been successfully using CCI 400 small rifle and even CCI 450 small rifle magnum primers in 357M and 38 Super loads.  Has anyone tried using Large Rifle primers?

AP
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Post by Ed Hall on 1/6/2020, 5:21 pm

jwax wrote:Thanks all! Nice to hear from you Ed! Are you suggesting that the 5 1/2 primer contributes to fragmenting the HBWC?
I will stay with the 1 1/2 primers.
What I used wasn't Remington, but they were Magnum Small Pistol (probably Winchester) and it was the only time I had the "delightful" experience described.  It was concluded that the primers were giving the powder charge too much of a boost at the start of the burn and some of the skirts were separating as they left the case.  I never tried to duplicate the fun.  I never found any skirt debris.  The only "evidence" was the considerably extra recoil (and report) that resulted in extra holes at 12 & 6 o'clock on the targets.  A thought on double-charging was addressed, but to double charge that many rounds on a progressive press was probably not likely. Additionally, the first string didn't exhibit any issue.  The second string had two, I believe, and the third string had three or four.  Not knowing what was going on, it never dawned on me to look in the chambers (or barrel) between strings, but nothing was there when I checked the gun over after the match, and there was no detectable ring(s) in the barrel, by either sight or patch.

I must point out that my memory is only of the described part of the match, but I think all of this was during the Rapid stage after having no issue during the Timed stage, but it is possible this was during both stages.  Of course, I wouldn't have had a refire during the Rapid stage if I'd used it up during Timed.

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Post by Aprilian on 1/6/2020, 6:04 pm

Hi Ed,

Your comment makes me wonder if my club might have been calling matches incorrectly.   I think this is the same in the current book, but I copied an older rule book which I found in PDF

1.7 Types of Matches - (a) Match - A complete event as indicated in the program for the awarding of certain specific prizes. A match may consist of one or of several stages. It may, in the case of aggregate matches, include the scores fired in several subsidiary matches. (b) Stage - A portion of a match that consists of one or more strings fired in one position, distance, time allowance (slow or rapid fire, for example), or target.


9.14 Refiring - (a) No competitor will fire more than one score for the same award except as provided in the program or in accordance with Rule 14.10. (b) In single stage matches composed of several strings of fire only one refire per match will be allowed. (c) In multiple stage matches one refire will be allowed in the slow fire stage and one refire will be allowed in the combined timed and rapid fire stages.

our bulletins list matches 
MATCH 1 20 SHOTS – .22 SLOW FIRE
MATCH 2 30 SHOTS – .22 NMC
MATCH 3 20 SHOTS – .22 TIMED FIRE
MATCH 4 20 SHOTS – .22 RAPID FIRE
MATCH 5 .22 AGG MATCHES 1-4
MATCH 6 20 SHOTS – CF SLOW FIRE
MATCH 7 30 SHOTS – CF NMC
MATCH 8 20 SHOTS – CF TIMED FIRE
MATCH 9 30 SHOTS – CF RAPID FIRE
MATCH 10 CF AGG MATCHES 6-9
MATCH 11 1800 AGG MATCHES 5 & 10 



So given those citations, what does one expect to see in the program which indicates a match where you were only allowed one short line refire?
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Post by bruce martindale on 1/6/2020, 9:23 pm

Hey Ed, I remember that! Weren't you also thinking they were old and fragile heads ? If it was in RF, maybe you had some leading that increased pressure?

Lucky no skirts stated in the bbl, l have seen bbls bulged from that. All shots on paper and a wrecked bbl.

Be well

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Post by bruce martindale on 1/6/2020, 9:29 pm

Alex, SR and SP primers are the same depth, but not so with large rifle

I worry about getting a sp primer in a 5.56 rifle load.

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Post by Ed Hall on 1/6/2020, 10:19 pm

Hey Ian,

This was a Harry Reeves Match at the Nationals; one of the first ones fired long ago.  It was an NMC and as far as I can remember, Slow Fire went without a hitch, but I might have used different ammo for it - possibly Federal Wadcutter.  Then the first string of Timed seemed OK, but the second had two as described.

But, now as I think more about it, I didn't have an alibi.  I had a refire for excessive hits because I had 12 holes in the target (8 nicely placed near the center, two at 12 and two at 6 o'clock).  But, the refire had extra holes as well, because of its enhanced rounds (three or four).  By then, I was just resolved to finishing the match.  I seem to remember enhanced rounds and extra holes for Rapid, but I wasn't interested in refiring it.

Thanks for jostling my memory a bit.

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Post by Ed Hall on 1/6/2020, 10:29 pm

bruce martindale wrote:Hey Ed, I remember that! Weren't you also thinking they were old and fragile heads ? If it was in RF, maybe you had some leading that increased pressure?

Lucky no skirts stated in the bbl, l have seen bbls bulged from that. All shots on paper and a wrecked bbl.

Be well
Hi Bruce,

No, I was using quite new Speer 148gn HBWC with a batch of brand new Magnum Small Pistol Primers in sorted (matched) 38sp cases, with 2.8gn of Bullseye, loaded with my (original) Square Deal, just for the Reeves Match.  After the match I went over the gun pretty thoroughly and found no signs of what may have happened.  It was later I had several discussions with revolver shooters, since I am not, and the conclusion appeared to be that the skirts were probably staying in the .357 sized cylinders ahead of the reach of .38 cases, since I had had no trouble loading subsequent rounds into the cylinder.  I never did any measurements to even see if that was a possibility.  I used SWCs exclusively after that and had no further issues.

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Post by PhotoEscape on 1/7/2020, 12:16 pm

bruce martindale wrote:Alex, SR and SP primers are the same depth, but not so with large rifle

I worry about getting a sp primer in a 5.56 rifle load.

Bruce,
I am aware of the dimensional difference between LPP and LRP.  Diameter of both is the same though, and hence it take a little bit reaming of the primer pocket on the case to fit LRP into pistol case at correct depth.  Obviously such reamed case(s) must be clearly marked and identified so no further use with LPP possible.  Although I think even if such occur it would not present a hazard for firing pin might not reach the primer.  Regardless I would not use modified cases with LPPs. 
My interest in this route comes from the fact that LRP develops higher pressure then LPP, and hence to compensate powder charge has to be decreased.  Subsequently same velocity can be achieved with lower powder charge, and, hopefully, it translates in slightly lower recoil impulse.  As a reference here is the link to article by Philip Massaro on the subject - https://gundigest.com/more/how-to/reloading-ammo-cartridge-primers-and-pressure-differences

AP
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Post by JKR on 1/9/2020, 12:47 pm

I have a couple boxes of 32 WC that was loaded by Doc Young. He used RWS small rifle primers.

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Post by spyer40 on 1/14/2020, 9:10 pm

David Sam's told me to use Remington magnum small pistol with 5gr N340 for the 9MM he built for me

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