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Eagle Eye scoring device legal?

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Toz35m
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Post by mEnTL32 1/29/2013, 1:05 am

Hello, long time lurker finally decided to register.

I have a question about the Eagle Eye scoring device. Like this one:

http://www.bullseyegear.com/bullseyepistol/product.php?productid=79&cat=0&page=1

Every once in a while I get a little guff from one of the other shooters when using one to score a target. They claim that these things have been "banned" by the NRA. I get various reasons why (the gauge isn't the right size, you aren't supposed to use magnifying glasses for scoring, etc). The rulebook doesn't mention them. Any way to get a definitive answer?

Thanks!

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Post by ChuckS1 1/29/2013, 9:47 am

I always figure if it's that close, give the shooter the benefit of the doubt.
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Post by DavidR 1/29/2013, 9:52 am

As long as a devise does not enter the bullet hole it can be used by a competitor, like a overlay which is the excepted standard. The NRA in disputes only uses scoring plugs and these must be used by an official unless in a local match the RO allows competitors to use them.
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Post by CR10X 1/29/2013, 11:15 pm

I have discussed this with a NRA referee in the past: Here is a summation.

Actually rule 14.3.1 is pretty specific about competitors "may use official NRA overlays" when acting as scorers. The rules do not mention using the "Eagle Eye" type of aids.

Now the reported problem with the Eagle Eye" aids is the imposed scoring rings were not approved or licensed by the NRA so the company making them apparently has not provided sufficient information as to the diameter and tolerances of the imposed rings in the device. Therefore the scored competitor may or may not gain an advantage if the imposed rings in the device are used to determine the location of a shot (does it touch the scoring ring or not). If you have one with the NRA logo on it, then I would assume that this has changed.

That being said, the devices do provide magnification and are a great help in determining doubles at times.

Therefore, use at your own risk, but the competitor being scored would probably have the option to contest and request re-score.

Please proceed to play nice together and you all have a nice day.

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Post by mEnTL32 1/30/2013, 1:44 am

Thanks guys; that's about where I stood on it as well (I understand it isn't official, so have only used it until someone raised an objection).

I found an email address on the NRA site and specifically asked if it was "banned," as I had been told. Their reply was along the same lines: as long as you don't plug the hole, it's ok with them. The match director has the final say.

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Post by gulliver62 2/1/2013, 1:07 pm

I am with ChuckS1.

Whatever you want to do the other competitor has the option of a challenge so as long as the hole isn't disturbed it shouldn't matter.
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Post by Toz35m 3/4/2014, 11:58 pm

This topic came up this weekend.  So I took an eagle eye and laid it on top of my overlay.  Eagle Eye is smaller.  On it says guaranteed 0.221".  I measured it and sure enough mine is spot on.  Then I measured my overlay and it came in at 0.230".  now the rule book says..."no scoring gauge will be used unless the diameter of the scoring flange is with in these limits.  .22 caliber......0.2225-0.2240".

So the Eagle Eye does not fit in the range so it should not be allowed for scoring NRA targets.  Or if you do and notice if the ring on the bottom of the eagle eye was a little bit bigger and the shot was in you give it to them then you should be good.  Calls for some judgement which could be different among everyone.  Although a legal overlay and magnifying glass would work wonders.  It would be nice if they would make an NRA legal one.
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Post by Rob Kovach 3/5/2014, 7:22 am

I believe that the rule regarding scoring gauges applies to plugs, as overlays and the eagle eye really don't have a flange.

I subscribe to the school of thought that if it's that close, give the shooter the benefit of the doubt.  Most match directors don't allow the competitors to use a plug--they do the plugging.  If there is a shot that you want to plug, call for a plug.

I don't see any reason why you can't use an eagle eye as an aid to score them as YOU see them.  Scoring is about making a judgement call and writing down your opinion.  As long as you don't touch the hole or molest the target, if the shooter doesn't like your opinion, he can pay the challenge fee and let the match official review and score the target.
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Post by sixftunda 3/5/2014, 2:19 pm

Eagle Eyes are definitely smaller than the NRA overlay.  The indoor league I shoot in use them.  Home team scores, visiting team checks the score.  Almost every hole that gets plugged is because one guy scored with an Eagle Eye and the other scored with an overlay.  

The best overlays I have seen have a smaller circle inside the actual scoring circle.  Helps center the overlay on the bullet hole.  I have not been able to find one to buy.  Bullseyepistolgear has them on back order.
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Post by DavidR 3/5/2014, 4:41 pm

It doesn't matter about the size of the eagle eye as it along with a overlay have no say in determining actual score of  the shot, use of these items only lets the scorer and the shooter try and settle a dispute, if they don't agree then a official with a plug must render the decision.
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Post by Jack H 3/5/2014, 5:43 pm

The Eagle can help make a call on half over-lapped holes. 

BTW  The Eagle does not make the call.  You do.
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Post by Ed Hall 3/6/2014, 1:43 pm

Toz35m wrote:This topic came up this weekend.  So I took an eagle eye and laid it on top of my overlay.  Eagle Eye is smaller.  On it says guaranteed 0.221".  I measured it and sure enough mine is spot on.  Then I measured my overlay and it came in at 0.230".  now the rule book says..."no scoring gauge will be used unless the diameter of the scoring flange is with in these limits.  .22 caliber......0.2225-0.2240".

So the Eagle Eye does not fit in the range so it should not be allowed for scoring NRA targets.  Or if you do and notice if the ring on the bottom of the eagle eye was a little bit bigger and the shot was in you give it to them then you should be good.  Calls for some judgement which could be different among everyone.  Although a legal overlay and magnifying glass would work wonders.  It would be nice if they would make an NRA legal one.
(My highlighting (bold) added to above.)

"So the Eagle Eye does not fit in the range so it should not be allowed for scoring NRA targets."

Just a nitpicky note, but your overlay doesn't fit either: "Then I measured my overlay and it came in at 0.230"."

0.230" is outside of 0.2225-0.2240"

Unless that's a typo...

The two rules "excerpts" to consider:

"Devices other than scoring gauges may be used to assist in establishing the correct value of hits. These devices are not to be inserted into the bullet hole and do not constitute a scoring gauge."

"However, competitors acting as scorers may use official NRA overlays in the performance of their duties."

The first appears to allow whatever device you wish, that isn't inserted, while the second infers, but does not insist upon official NRA overlays.

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Post by Jack H 3/6/2014, 2:39 pm

On a related note.  On comparing* "official" overlays, one outdoor and one indoor, the bullet circles did not agree. 

*overlaying the overlay on the overlay
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Post by Ed Hall 3/6/2014, 8:13 pm

Jack H wrote:On a related note.  On comparing* "official" overlays, one outdoor and one indoor, the bullet circles did not agree. 

*overlaying the overlay on the overlay
Things that make you say, "hhhmmmm." Smile

Along that line, I know there are sometimes transparency overlay copies made and one should be careful in doing such, because copy machines do alter the dimensions on a small scale.  And, technically, even thought these copies have the NRA logo, they are not official...

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Post by Toz35m 3/6/2014, 9:12 pm

Ed...that was a typo.  My overlay measured at 0.223".

The other night I had trouble getting to the USA shooting rules but later I did discover the Eagle Eye fits perfect for use in USA Shooting matches but my overlay is too big.  USA Shooting (or really ISSF rules) has the range for a scoring gauge at 5.6mm +.05/-.00mm  or 0.2204"-0.2224".
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Post by Ed Hall 3/7/2014, 7:54 am

Toz35m wrote:Ed...that was a typo.  My overlay measured at 0.223".

The other night I had trouble getting to the USA shooting rules but later I did discover the Eagle Eye fits perfect for use in USA Shooting matches but my overlay is too big.  USA Shooting (or really ISSF rules) has the range for a scoring gauge at 5.6mm +.05/-.00mm  or 0.2204"-0.2224".
I kind of thought that...

I also agree with an above poster that the gauges referenced in the rule book(s) are actually meaning the plug type devices, since the one rule seems to give you the option of using whatever you like to "aid" in scoring, but restricts the use of "gauges" to match officials.  In that regard, I would say your overlay is fine.  If there is a difference of opinion between the shooter and scorer, the final decision would be by an officially deemed accurate device within the rules tolerances.

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