ISSF 25M Pistol Course of Fire

by Slartybartfast 2/14/2020, 9:23 am

A center-fire match consists of two parts of 30 shots each, both shot at 25 m:
A precision stage where 5 shots are to be fired during a 5-minute period.
A rapid-fire stage where, for each shot, the shooter has 3 seconds to raise his arm from a 45 degree angle and fire.
As with all ISSF pistol disciplines, all firing must be done with one hand, unsupported.

The score zones of the targets are different for the two stages, but scores are usually similar for the two courses. In the precision stage, the target is the same as in 50 metre pistol (although at half the distance), with a 10-zone of 5 cm diameter, and in the rapid-fire stage, the target is the same as in 25 metre rapid fire pistol, with a 10-zone of 10 cm diameter.

I've shot this course of fire a couple of times in matches. And did quite well once with a borrowed Hammerli in .32
The 7sec pause, 3 sec to shoot rhythm of the rapid-fire stage with return to 45deg and not putting the pistol down was challenging.

Is this course of fire shot by many in the US? Or is it only shot perhaps by people who've joined USAShooting? When do they have their matches?

by Mike38 2/14/2020, 9:57 am

I always tell myself to try that someday, but never get around to it. There is a place about an hour's drive from me that holds 6 ISSF matches a year, and for some reason I never make it. I think they have 10 meter air pistol, .22 match, center fire match and free pistol, all in one day.

by Slartybartfast 2/14/2020, 10:48 am

Mike38 wrote:I always tell myself to try that someday, but never get around to it. There is a place about an hour's drive from me that holds 6 ISSF matches a year, and for some reason I never make it. I think they have 10 meter air pistol, .22 match, center fire match and free pistol, all in one day.

Trying it is as easy as using a timer on your smart phone.
https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=com.tothezeroth.timer&hl=en_CA

by MarkF45 2/14/2020, 11:25 am

I've shot it. It's a challenge, like all the other courses of fire.

I would shoot it now, if there were a match near me.

Look on USA Shooting's website to see where the matches are. They are few and far between in the USA.

by **Wobbley** 2/14/2020, 11:45 am

There are some “International “ matches listed in here.

https://www.ssusa.org/media/1542226/february_2020_ce.pdf

So it is shot sometimes.

by john bickar 2/14/2020, 3:28 pm

It has dwindled to almost nothing from the heyday back when there were multiple military teams shooting ISSF(UIT) pistol.

A few years ago at USASNC, the match was held, and there was ONE competitor.

I believe I still hold the US record at 594. That record is almost old enough to vote.

by Slartybartfast 2/14/2020, 5:07 pm

john bickar wrote:I believe I still hold the US record at 594. That record is almost old enough to vote.

Wow, congratulaions.

Now that I've found a close US location that holds matches I might not be going to the Canadian match that is just as far away. Don't practice the ISSF course of fire, but was fun shooting it in the matches when I did, and I'll shoot it again if offered.

Was thinking I should start practicing with the timer as it is a good way to practice getting off the first shot in EIC. And although I'm shooting bullseye for matches, I've kinda stuck in the habit of starting at 45degrees anyways. So practising sport pistol rapid fire could help my first shots in timed and rapid fire bullseye.

by Guest 2/14/2020, 5:19 pm

Question for you experienced ISSF shooters. In the 150 second 5 shot slow fire I assume that it is OK to lower the gun between shots. Is it OK to rest the gun on the bench between shots?
Gonna try it for the first time at my State Sectional next week. Got the timer app and started practise today. The timer app just gives a single command "load". I assume that firing proceeds as soon as possible after the "load" command?

by Jon Eulette 2/14/2020, 5:42 pm

You may rest the pistol on the bench during SF 150 sec portion. Load command and start(firing) command are seperate.
Jon

by JKR 2/14/2020, 6:21 pm

Had my first taste of International style shooting a year ago at the match in Phoenix. Only got to shoot CF. Loved it and did quite well. Since then I’ve gotten more serious about Air Pistol and started working with Free Pistol. Might be close to sacrilege to say it here, but I prefer it to bullseye. No nasty 45!
JKR

by john bickar 2/14/2020, 7:22 pm

Jon Eulette wrote:You may rest the pistol on the bench during SF 150 sec portion. Load command and start(firing) command are seperate.
Jon

5 shots in 5 minutes for CF precision. You're thinking of Standard Pistol (for which you may, indeed, rest the gun on the bench during the 150s series in between shots).

You may rest the gun on the bench in between shots for Center Fire and Sport Pistol precision.

You may not rest the gun on the bench in between shots for Center Fire and Sport Pistol rapid fire.

by john bickar 2/14/2020, 7:23 pm

JKR wrote:Since then I’ve gotten more serious about Air Pistol and started working with Free Pistol. Might be close to sacrilege to say it here, but I prefer it to bullseye.
JKR

Nah, you're good. There's a lot of crossover, and many of us have crossed over multiple times.

by Guest 2/14/2020, 7:34 pm

John, yes, you are right. I jumped in without realizing I was mixing up Standard Pistol and Center Fire. Thanks to Jon and John for clarifying.
I read through the NRA International Style rule book this afternoon. There appears to be a number of ambiguities and stuff not mentioned. Hmmm.
The Oregon Sectional seems to be the only time I shall get to shoot FP, AP and Standard Pistol in Pacific NW each year, so I guess that I don't need to get too excited about the rule book!

by john bickar 2/14/2020, 7:35 pm

radjag wrote:Question for you experienced ISSF shooters. In the 150 second 5 shot slow fire I assume that it is OK to lower the gun between shots. Is it OK to rest the gun on the bench between shots?
Gonna try it for the first time at my State Sectional next week. Got the timer app and started practise today. The timer app just gives a single command "load". I assume that firing proceeds as soon as possible after the "load" command?

Oh, I missed this, Roy. You have 60 seconds after the command "load" and then the targets face. CF and STD are slightly different; I always have to read the rule book before shooting them.

by Colt711 2/14/2020, 8:07 pm

JKR wrote:Had my first taste of International style shooting a year ago at the match in Phoenix. Only got to shoot CF. Loved it and did quite well. Since then I’ve gotten more serious about Air Pistol and started working with Free Pistol. Might be close to sacrilege to say it here, but I prefer it to bullseye. No nasty 45!
JKR

Sounds like some enjoyable courses....only improvement I could think of w/b to add the 45 in there somewhere....what do youall think about Int FORTY FIVE Rapid fire....what is the time seq (secs) 10-8-6-4? Maybe 4 secs a little too little for .45? At my age it might be better 10-12-14...you get the pic! Some cross fert here might spark interest in our sport?

Bristol IN...Chief Wa-Ke-De Range fired Free Pistol & Int RF the day before their Spring & fall Matches. I'm not sure about before their Regional. Enjoyable shooting , especially after a couple of adult beverages! I never tried the Free Pistol...couldn't find where they give them away.

Ron Habegger

by Slartybartfast 2/17/2020, 9:36 am

john bickar wrote:

Oh, I missed this, Roy. You have 60 seconds after the command "load" and then the targets face. CF and STD are slightly different; I always have to read the rule book before shooting them.

In ISSF competition, "load" includes loading the magazine with 5 shots. Hence the long time between load and fire to do it.

by Guest 2/17/2020, 9:42 am

OK. I looked in the settings menu of the 25M Timer App and found how to adjust the prep period. Got it now.
Thanks.

by Slartybartfast 2/17/2020, 9:48 am

radjag wrote:I read through the NRA International Style rule book this afternoon. There appears to be a number of ambiguities and stuff not mentioned. Hmmm.

One thing the NRA certainly seems to excel at is creating rules with ambiguities.

And why they have rules for an International discipline governed by an international body is beyond me.

This is part of the oddity of US shooting organisation. If I understand correctly, the NRA used to be the IOC recognised organisation for the USA. The NRA's political activities made them ineligible to be an Olympic IOC/ISSF recognised organisation and USA Shooting was created.

Yet, the NRA continues to have rules for disciplines that they don't actually govern anymore.

The ISSF rules can be found here:
https://www.issf-sports.org/theissf/rules_and_regulations.ashx

by Slartybartfast 2/17/2020, 9:56 am

radjag wrote:OK. I looked in the settings menu of the 25M Timer App and found how to adjust the prep period. Got it now.
Thanks.

Or leave it alone and shoot to true international ISSF standards. Magazines empty before Load command.
(of course ignore this if you'll be competing NRA. You'll only need the rhythm of loading magazines if USAS uses that way I guess)

by Guest 2/17/2020, 10:13 am

OK. So the obvious next question is - for NRA "International" Sectionals, do only the NRA Rules apply?

The ISSF Rules, for example, have no provision for 50 foot range and targets, so the ISSF Rules cannot be "blanketed" over the NRA Rules. I guess that one would have to "cherry pick" specific ISSF Rules for issues not mentioned in NRA Rules (shoe flexibility, just as an example)? That does not seem to be quite practical.

by Ed Hall 2/17/2020, 11:10 am

radjag wrote:OK. So the obvious next question is - for NRA "International" Sectionals, do only the NRA Rules apply?

The ISSF Rules, for example, have no provision for 50 foot range and targets, so the ISSF Rules cannot be "blanketed" over the NRA Rules. I guess that one would have to "cherry pick" specific ISSF Rules for issues not mentioned in NRA Rules (shoe flexibility, just as an example)? That does not seem to be quite practical.

NRA sanctioned events use NRA rules. The NRA rules exist because the NRA still has International discipline events, like the International Sectionals. When I was shooting more International events, like Air and Free Pistol, many of them were dual-sanctioned, as in both USAS and NRA. I shot under NRA, since I didn't belong to USAS.

As an aside, the last I knew, the ISSF rules did not include any reduced distances or target sizes, but USAS rules did include them. So, there are some differences, based on the sanctioning entity.

by Guest 2/17/2020, 11:13 am

Thank you Ed, very clear.

Good, that makes my preparation for the Sectionals much easier.

by Slartybartfast 2/17/2020, 11:50 am

radjag wrote:The ISSF Rules, for example, have no provision for 50 foot range and targets, so the ISSF Rules cannot be "blanketed" over the NRA Rules. I guess that one would have to "cherry pick" specific ISSF Rules for issues not mentioned in NRA Rules (shoe flexibility, just as an example)? That does not seem to be quite practical.

NRA's failure is in not simply making a list of additions and exceptions or copying all the rules.
The SFC (https://sfc-ftc.ca/) sells 20yd reduced targets for all ISSF disciplines. Their rules for ISSF events are just a link to the ISSF rules.

NRA rules for a 50ft match should be as simple as reference to the ISSF rules and the new 50ft target and standards.

IMO, the CMP in hubris is being much the same in creating the match pistol rules. Close to ISSF, but not ISSF, and ignoring the many good rules (if they are going to copy) they should be including.

by Jon Eulette 2/17/2020, 12:35 pm

Ed Hall wrote:
radjag wrote:OK. So the obvious next question is - for NRA "International" Sectionals, do only the NRA Rules apply?

The ISSF Rules, for example, have no provision for 50 foot range and targets, so the ISSF Rules cannot be "blanketed" over the NRA Rules. I guess that one would have to "cherry pick" specific ISSF Rules for issues not mentioned in NRA Rules (shoe flexibility, just as an example)? That does not seem to be quite practical.
NRA sanctioned events use NRA rules. The NRA rules exist because the NRA still has International discipline events, like the International Sectionals. When I was shooting more International events, like Air and Free Pistol, many of them were dual-sanctioned, as in both USAS and NRA. I shot under NRA, since I didn't belong to USAS.

As an aside, the last I knew, the ISSF rules did not include any reduced distances or target sizes, but USAS rules did include them. So, there are some differences, based on the sanctioning entity.

In 1991 I won the int’l CF match at the US Team at large selection match (I think that’s what they called it). Team match scores were compiled from the three firing members scores (3 man team) shot during individual match. We set a two national records (open and service) with the NRA which still stands. USA Shooting would not honor the record because we couldn’t prove it was shot at 25 meters. There was a lot of animosity between the NRA and USAS back then. Anyhow my point is two governing body’s with their own ideals.
Jon

by Guest 2/17/2020, 12:51 pm

One other interesting point I noted in the ISSF Rules is that only lead bullets are permitted (in all categories including 25m CF). So all of us Pardini HP32 owners using factory (or reloaded) 32ACP with Hornady JHP's are Sh... Out Of Luck!!

I guess that most of the 32ACP target guns have been made to suit the USA Bullseye market and all of the CF guns in Europe are using 32SWL lead wadcutters.

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