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Post by r.tornello on 3/6/2020, 3:42 pm

I enjoy single shot shooting as well as autoloaders, but single shot is like shooting slow fire or bench-rest with a pistol. I know Pardini made them once upon a time, and so did the Soviets.

Does anyone have anything they can tell me what to watch for, recommended models and anything else? I don't intend to compete, just shoot at the range a couple of days a week. 

Thanks,

Rick Tornello
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Post by Slartybartfast on 3/6/2020, 4:22 pm

r.tornello wrote:I enjoy single shot shooting as well as autoloaders, but single shot is like shooting slow fire or bench-rest with a pistol. I know Pardini made them once upon a time, and so did the Soviets.

Does anyone have anything they can tell me what to watch for, recommended models and anything else? I don't intend to compete, just shoot at the range a couple of days a week. 

Thanks,

Rick Tornello
I scored a Drulov 75 for a very low price. Really enjoy the bolt action shooting and the ridiculously sensitive set trigger. Not a lightweight pistol, by the end of 60 shots my arm is really feeling it.

All the major Euro manufacturers have a FP model. And there are always the TOZs to be found.
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Post by Jon Eulette on 3/6/2020, 4:27 pm

I shot a Toz 35 for many years. I shot practically everything made at one point and always went back to my Toz. 
I have been shooting a MG5 recently and like it quite a bit. It’s pretty forgiving similar to the Toz.
Many of my high level shooting friends use Morini’s.
If your dabbling anything at a good price will work. If you get serious than you need to experiment with several brands. The MG5 grip is one of the best factory grips I’ve ever held, if not the best.
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Post by r.tornello on 3/6/2020, 4:53 pm

Pardon my ignorance MG5 is?

I like precision. When I shoot rifle and on a good day I keep my groups ~1/4 inch 20 shots with Surgeon 591 Scalpel short action single shot 223,heavy barrel, Nightforce Comp scope on an A5 chassis. A bad day is 1/2".

Any feel for Pardini?
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Post by Jon Eulette on 3/6/2020, 6:04 pm

Pardini’s were not used by many back in my FP heyday. I have shot one very little but never considered it an option compared to other FP’s. MG5 is Match Gun FP. Good grip, easily adjusted trigger, not to heavy, balances well, and shoots fairly forgiving. Recoil feedback is positive and makes calling shots easy. It comes with weighted adjustable rods; I do not use them.
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Post by CrankyThunder on 3/6/2020, 7:16 pm

HI Rick:

First off I do not know that much about free pistol but a year ago I purchased a Pardini K22 which is no longer produced although it looks very similar to the current model without some of the aesthetic enhancements.  One thing that I learned when searching for a Free Pistol was that at least according to the advice I received, stay away from the electronic triggers.  They are problematic and parts are not available. 

I have not mastered the pistol yet, that hair trigger takes a lot of practice to learn.  I mean it really takes time to even become comfortable with how light that trigger is.  I am super cautious at the range with live ammo, you can easily trip the trigger just trying to find it with your finger.  Personally, I make sure that the gun is pointed at the target before I even begin trying to find the trigger, and once you find it, the gun will probably go off if you blink. 

What you also need to know is that it is incredibly difficult to get a ten with the regulation targets set at the correct distance.  It is a lot smaller then the x ring in bullseye and it is set at 50 meters, compared to 50 yards in bullseye.  I can assure you that any current Olympians are not looking over their shoulder for Cranky with a little bit of concern!

Also the pistol is a lot more sensitive to ammo selection.  Whereas in my Pardini SP will deliver x ring accuracy with most all European middle of the road ammo and CCI SV, the Pardini K22 requires ammo selection similar to what is required for rimfire benchrest.  Of course, the K22 does not have the requirement to operate the bolt and load the next round which the Pardini SP requires.  My K22 really likes SK pistol match special and SK pistol match. Groups are noticibly larger with CCI SV, old Eley Sport, and Eley target, some of the other ammos that I have left over from my hoarding days during the great Obama Ammo Shortage.  

I went with the Pardini K22 for a couple reasons, it was a very good price used, in very good condition although it had a high round count, and that it is supported by Pardini USA.  The Iron Sights are incredible in the adjustments they offer to the shooter, pretty much the same iron sights available on the Pardini SP.  With my decaying eyesight, I have mounted a red dot on the K22 and have done a lot better although red dots are not allowed in competition.  

What I do have difficulty with is that I shoot my Pardini SP quite a bit.  And I know the trigger with its three pound pull intimately.  It is difficult to switch from the 3 pound trigger of the SP to the 3 oz trigger of the K22.  I do not have any problem going from the K22 back to the SP New though.  

I cannot offer any opinions on the Toz, the Morini, or any of the other free pistols because I do not have any experience with them. 

Hope this helps and it is a lot of fun to shoot. 

Regards, 
Cranky
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Post by tray999 on 3/6/2020, 7:40 pm

what does anyone know about FREE PISTOLS? 42873611920_08328839a8_z

The TOZ 35 is a great Free Pistol and a few years ago there was a bunch of them imported into the US.  I paid $300 for a like new in the box one above.  That price did not include the Rink grip or the custom forend.

In my opinion, Free Pistol is the hardest of all pistol sports to master.    I was very sad when it was dropped as an Olympic sport.   But I love shooting it.
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Post by r.tornello on 3/6/2020, 8:32 pm

To all of you so far, thanks. You have given me more than a 3 course dinner for thought.
CRANKY, I had a few ounce trigger on a STYER air gun. I know ( or knew) the transition you mentioned.Tray999, Nice photo.Jon and the others thanks.

The eye thing, I'm 70 yeah I know.

Keep an eye out and let me know if you see a good one at a fair price.

I shoot a S&W 41 with a dot tricked out by Roddy Toyota, a Sig P210-6 Iron and dot, and a Korth Supersport with a scope. I used to have a FW93, never really liked it (there was nothing wrong with it, I just didn't like it), and a 2nd generation Nygord Pardini SP22, the best of them all. I had others too.
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Post by john bickar on 3/6/2020, 11:19 pm

Jon Eulette wrote:Pardini’s were not used by many back in my FP heyday.

They were not used by many, but they were good guns.

The Collegiate National Record is still held by a shooter from the University of Virginia who was using a Pardini FP.
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Post by radjag on 3/7/2020, 12:02 am

I've never shot a true Free Pistol, but have fraternised with one or two top shooters who did, back in the day. When I was a youngster in the UK (back when folks could own and use handguns there!!!) and the National Smallbore Rifle Association (NSRA) ran most everything, the aspiration was to be good enough to be accepted into the British Pistol Club. The fast track was to get yourself a really accurate gun to shoot "Master" level scores in slow fire events. 

NSRA slow fire pistol events at that time (If I remember correctly) did not permit true Free Pistols, but you could use long barrelled single shot pistols (an over-hang from the Webley & Scott break action single shot guns that had been widely distributed to clubs after WW2 and which were indeed what I started out on in a local "National Guard" club). The Hammerli 120 was at that time considered to be a Free Pistol trainer and had a more upright "1911" style grip, but a very good, fully adjustable trigger and was super-accurate, and was permitted for slow fire events. It was relatively cheap and not main stream - so, as a poor, but keen, student - I bought one, it shot well.

It also, interestingly, had a hole at the back of the receiver into which one could insert a removable shoulder stock. It became, whether by fact or fiction, to be known as an assassins gun during the Cold War. The shorter barrel version with a silencer was the business, apparently.

what does anyone know about FREE PISTOLS? Img_2257
The standard grips are not bad, but this after-market Rink grip (available to order even today) is much better. I had to have one when I returned to shooting here in USA a couple of years ago. They come up on GunBroker now and again for around $1,000, took me a couple of tries before I got a really good one.

It is not a true Free Pistol, but the ergonomics (particularly with the Rink grips) are excellent and much more familiar to Bullseye shooters. It is, with decent ammo, extremely accurate. Flyers are down to the shooter. The trigger can be set to be almost as light as you want, but nowhere near a true Free Pistol.

I bought it purely for nostalgia reasons and had not shot it very often, but then heard that there was a Free Pistol Sectional in Oregon, so I put the OEM iron sights back on - dialled in the iris on my Champion shooting glasses and practised a bit. Any serious Free Pistol guy would laugh at my score, but it got me the Gold medal for the Oregon Sectional.what does anyone know about FREE PISTOLS? Img_2258

I agree with other posters above that a TOZ is the most cost effective way to go if you really want a Free Pistol, but I'm very happy with my "trainer". My old wrists can't contort to the position required for a proper ISSF grip, so this 1911 angle is much better for me.

I can never compete with any serious free pistol shooter, but I'm extremely happy with what this clever gun can help me achieve.

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Post by r.tornello on 3/7/2020, 6:42 am

@Radjag, thanks. The rifle 100 yard rage down here won't allow pistols, the 150' is the limit, so training at 50 meters is out, even just for the hell of it.

@TRAY999 what did it cost you to set up like that and where did you get the counter weight? There are a few TOZ with raw unfinished hand grips on GB right now.

Any thoughts?
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Post by CraigB5940 on 3/7/2020, 7:01 am

A Toz 35 is good! You will like it based how you like precision hardware. One thing, soviets were not much for trying to match the swiss or germans outside surface finish but they don't cut corners on the internal function and barrel quality-they are pragmatic about this.

Here's a Toz 35 for sale on TT with med grips.
https://www.targettalk.org/viewtopic.php?f=7&t=61734

I have one and I put Rink grips on it, you can't go wrong wit a Toz. Lots of internet info on them, Larry's had some parts for them which may be at Cardinal but they came with a spare kits part that should keep you going. Mine had a spring fail and instead of using the spare, I made one from a paper binder clip so save the spare and it works fine. The mainspring can be replaced with a S&W revolver slide rebound spring.

The raw grips are a PITA, I spent hours forming mine and in the end I was not happy with my work and  got a set of rink grips and all is well! You can get reduced distance targets for 50 ft and 25 yards. The 50 ft reduced target is VERY DIFFICULT to get tens! Very gratifying when you can get a few tens!

I probably would have been OK if I got a Toz with factory finished grips and not gone with the rink grips.

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Post by BE Mike on 3/7/2020, 8:06 am

I've owned and shot a Pardini PGP 75, a Hammerli 120 and a Morini CM84E. I never mastered free pistol, but I shot the Pardini better than the other two. While many previous electronic triggered free pistols may have had problems, the Morini CM84E have a solid history of functioning. The TOZ 35 was and is an economical way to shoot and a lot of top shooters use them.
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Post by JKR on 3/7/2020, 8:26 am

Some will say that the TOZ is the most forgiving of the Free pistols. I wouldn’t know. TOZ is the only one I’ve had experience with I started with a borrowed 35 and liked it even though the grip was a little too big. Soon after I bought my own 35M that came inlet into a big block of walnut. From that I fashioned a grip that fit me perfectly. I shot my way to an expert classification and won a state championship with it.
The gun that I started with had the trigger set at 20 grams. I quickly learned th handle it but I set my own trigger at 40 grams. I believe the TOZ trigger will set to around 80 grams max. 28 grams to an ounce if I’m not mistaken.
Sounds like you have your mind set on the Pardini. Hope you find yourself a nice one. Let us all know how you do with it.

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Post by r.tornello on 3/7/2020, 8:47 am

@JKR I love Pardinis. They've been good to me. I stopped competing about 13 years ago and keep thinking I should go back. However after off and on, stop and go, I realized what I like is to shoot as a mental discipline and exercise. I work out too but this is my form of ZEN.

Multi-shot autoloaders are okay but yesterday I just kept loading 1 round in the magazine,
taking  and calling the shot. And like my Surgeon rifle I took an hour or so after zeroing my dot to run a box of 50.  I take an hour or more to run 30 shots on my rifle after which I'm calm, relaxed lowered my pulse rate and shot between the floaters in my eye. The 54 power scope really brings them into focus (pun intended).

Yeah there are a few TOZ M's out there and I would have to get a new grip.

Speaking of grips, Rink sizing seems to all over the place ( 2 experiences). My FW93 grip is a small and is a perfect fit. I ordered a small  with the same set up for my S&W 41 and it was almost extra small. I wound up going with Herritts that Roddy fashioned. I never liked them in the past only to discover I did NOT know how to grip them properly being used to the NYGORD Pardini and Rink grips and I did try others too. The S&W now comes right back to battery. They are thin (custom cut) and they work. What a paradigm shift.

Back to the main story:
There is one Pardini K50 out there too. I'm going to call Pardini USA to see if they still support the gun.

Any other comments, suggestions and what not, flee free.

Thanks,

RT
Thank you to all of you. IMO this has to be one of the best forums out there.
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Post by JKR on 3/7/2020, 9:17 am

You just might find your form of Zen with the free pistol. It’s very intense, precise, and slow moving. Free pistol and air pistol have become my favorite form of competition. 
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Post by Allgoodhits on 3/7/2020, 9:28 am

George Harris at the Fx Rod & Gun Club Manassas, VA has a Toz for sale.  email crypted. handlebargbhATverizonDOTnet 

Martin
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Post by chopper on 3/7/2020, 10:56 am

"I wound up going with Herritts that Roddy fashioned. I never liked them in the past only to discover I did NOT know how to grip them properly being used to the NYGORD Pardini and Rink grips and I did try others too." 
 R.Tornello, could you explain a little on gripping the Herrets, I'm assuming your talking about their Nationals with the adjustable palm shelf.
 I have a set that are for a HS Victor that I altered ( chiseled and sanded the thumb rest off) so I could get a tighter grip on the stocks. I probably ruined them for resale, but think I might form a new thumb rest, and put a finger bump on the right stock between the trigger and 2nd finger.
 If anyone has altered their Herrets could you post a picture or two, it would be appreciated.
 Thanks much, Stan

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Post by r.tornello on 3/7/2020, 11:08 am

No, I'm talking about the 1911 style.

Roddy explained it on the phone but being somewhat thick in the head I didn't get it until I reviewed my old notes from training which you may find on  The Encyclopedia of Bulleye Pistol : US ARMY Marksmanship Unit, Pistol Training Guide. It's open

Illustration 1-5 and 1-6 C. GRIP.

I was so used to the bullseye grips and had an attitude about it, that it took a self dope slap to get things right. Once I started to practice as described it was a sea change. I do not hunt for the dot after each shot.

I hope that gives you a lead.

RT

Each type of grip requires different pressure and hold but the basics are the same.

Roddy had them thinned down and refinished them. I added skateboard tape to the back strap area.
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Post by Sa-tevp on 3/7/2020, 11:14 am

tray999 wrote:what does anyone know about FREE PISTOLS? 42873611920_08328839a8_z

The TOZ 35 is a great Free Pistol and a few years ago there was a bunch of them imported into the US.  I paid $300 for a like new in the box one above.  That price did not include the Rink grip or the custom forend.

In my opinion, Free Pistol is the hardest of all pistol sports to master.    I was very sad when it was dropped as an Olympic sport.   But I love shooting it.


The nice benefit of a TOZ/Rink/Centra set up like above is you can wedge a piece of closed cell foam between the trigger bar and the barrel to get trigger weight above 75 - 80 grams. If you don't shoot free pistol often this lets you get more confidence on the trigger and not waste shots.

I have the same set up as above that I bought used from an experienced competitor so it was all sorted out before I got it. I have heard reports that the was a German shop that could tune up TOZs (Ever see Uwe Potteck's chromed TOZ?) and for a while a US shop hot-rodded TOZs. The Soviet concept was to make something good enough and your coach or club armorer would do the final tuning of the pistol and the grips. The Soviets had a farm league system and a lot of support posters and books printed to go with their training programs.

Part of the reason for my purchase was the pistol had the same Rink size code as my other pistols. I still ended up whacking off chunks of un-needed wood to save weight and then tuning the grip to my hand.

We used to shoot 50m pistol here in Georgia as a mixed event. Too bad the Olympic competitions couldn't be open minded like us.
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Post by r.tornello on 3/7/2020, 11:25 am

My experience with RINK code sizing is not confidence building as mentioned in another response in this thread. However the AW 93 Bullseye grip that I used as a base line, and still have is perfect.

I'm on the hunt. I sent an email to Lottes Engineering  in DE for pricing. I looked up the RINK cost so I will know approx the base line cost for this new suit.

The photo above and the aesthetics and balance are just right. And having a IZH 35  once upon a time, I'm aware of the rough finish. Your last paragraph on the Soviet attitude reminds me of what I heard from others long ago in the past.

RT
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Post by Sa-tevp on 3/7/2020, 11:40 am

r.tornello wrote:My experience with RINK code sizing is not confidence building as mentioned in another response in this thread. However the AW 93 Bullseye grip that I used as a base line, and still have is perfect.
.....

I have owned about ten grips made by Rink, ambidextrous and anatomical. I think the size concept is a good start but the reality is the pistol frames cause the size to be a compromise. I like them as usually there is enough material to get a good fit for me, the cost is reasonable for the product, the frame fit is very good, and the wood/oil combination is easy to work with. I have had some Rinks that were about 95% for my hand and others I have had to do drastic surgery on. 

If I had a chance to work with a US grip maker like Dick Horton or Herrett I would, but travel and transport are a challenge.
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Post by r.tornello on 3/7/2020, 11:54 am

I had a Horton grip for my SP22. I liked the NYGORD grip the best. It might nave been a RINK. I never knew.
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Post by tray999 on 3/7/2020, 12:22 pm

r.tornello,

If you are in Northern Virginia area, Fairfax Rod and Gun has a monthly Free Pistol match when you get your Free Pistol set up.
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Post by r.tornello on 3/7/2020, 12:40 pm

South Riding, now that sounds good.
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