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CCI 22 SV = Grrrrr

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Post by mikemyers on 3/13/2020, 7:57 pm

I've been shooting my S&W Model 17-5 for a few days now, and it seemed to be acting up.  The more I shot it, the more difficult it got to eject the cases - it got to where my hand was hurting from the effort.

Went home, and last night thoroughly cleaned the gun.  Went back to the range today, and all seemed fine, for a while, but after loading it with 5 rounds maybe seven or eight times, the problem re-occurred.  Stupid me figured something was wrong with the gun, so I asked one of my friends to look at it, and then fire it.  It did the same thing for him.  He was suspicious about the ammo, so we switched to Aguila.  Perfect.  From then on, no issues with Aguila.

I saved two cases from the CCI and the Aguila to measure with a micrometer.  Hopefully it will give me useful information if I call the tech support line at CCI again.  They've already exchanged ammo for me once.  Bummer, year after year, CCI worked effortlessly.  But I guess that's irrelevant.  I need something that will work in 2020.

I did shoot some more CCI later in the day, but I "scrubbed" them off on a piece of rough paper towel to remove whatever cr*p CCI puts on them, which made them useable again.


The gun seems to have no problem with Eley CMP bulk ammo, so I guess I'm going to order another case of it in the near future.  That, or ask here which specific label for Aguila would be good for me.

If others have had the same problem, don't blame the gun until you check out the ammo.
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Post by Jack H on 3/13/2020, 8:04 pm

Next week I intend shoot some of each lot CCI SV I have over my chronograph.

In the past CCI Sv shot well  -  several strings average from a Marvel  (fps sd)
CCI SV^ 927 8, 929 22     CCI C23F08
CCI SV^^ 932 17, 942 19     CCI J06F15


From a 6" SW17
CCI 872 14
CCI SV 845 12 J06F15
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Post by alaronstein on 3/13/2020, 9:03 pm

I use CCI/SV continually in the shop. We use it to test repair guns and in the manufacture of the new "X-Series" pistols. I am generally pleased with CCI. It like all large volume production ammunition can have issues !!! Their biggest is EXCESS lubricant on the bullets. My personal favorite is Aguila. I have to disclose that the owners of Aguila are "almost" family to me. I made my first trip to the plant in the late 1960s. I think that it was then owned or operated by Remington at that time. I think that the current owners bought the plant in the mid 1970s. The evolution to a worldwide ammunition factor of what I would describe as a modest operation to its current high tech and high volume level has been amazing to watch. They keep their production runs at the volume required to insure the quality of each Lot Number !!! I test every "X- Series" Pistol with Aguila Standard Vel (1030fps) and Pistol Match (925 fps).- Alan Aronstein

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Post by Mac2 on 3/17/2020, 10:13 pm

I too had problems with lots of CCI SV that were probably from late 2018 to perhaps mid 2019.  Sent back to Idaho on their dime.  Older CCI SV worked fine for many years.   Rounds from a lot starting with "J" seem to work.  Aquila Match Pistol works, but the first round on cold day may not move slide back far enough to have a clean ejection (in some pistols like Victory).  Suspect that pistol's lube needs to be more thin - using Gunfighter oil.  Suggestions? However, my old 208S is perfectly happy - can not remember the last alibi with that pistol.

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Post by alaronstein on 3/18/2020, 7:52 am

Try Marvel Mystery Oil !!!! - Alan Aronstein

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Post by Mac2 on 3/18/2020, 6:59 pm

Thanks Alan.  Will put it on shopping list.  Of course, up here in the North, we keep loaded magazines in our pockets so as to keep the cartridges from being too cold.  Mac

All matches in Michigan have been canceled.  Fortunately, our near league only had one match left before things shut down.

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Post by bruce martindale on 3/19/2020, 10:23 am

+1 on oil, any oil, on the shells even in a revolver .

Can't emphasize that enough.

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Post by mikemyers on 3/19/2020, 12:56 pm

Bruce, why would you add oil to shells being fired in a revolver?  What problem(s) does it solve?
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Post by bruce martindale on 3/19/2020, 7:56 pm

Blowback and fouling gathers between the shell and cylinder. Without oil, the deposit cake is hard and inhibits extraction.

Clean your cylinder wth kroil and oil shells see if problem stops.

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Post by mikemyers on 3/19/2020, 8:49 pm

The problem already stopped, when I stopped shooting the CCI in my revolver.  Now I'm mostly using Eley from the CMP bulk purchase.  My Aguila ammo also works with no problems. 

I don't expect to buy any more CCI ammo.  I'll find some way to use up what I have, wiping off whatever wax or lube they put on them - that seems to correct the problem too.  At least I'll be able to use up what I've got, eventually.

If I do shoot it in my revolver, I'll add oil as you suggest.  

As you noted, a good cleaning also fixed the problem - until I shot more CCI.   I guess I wipe the wax off my rounds, then lightly oil them.  Maybe I'll try this tomorrow, if I get back to the range.
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Post by Soupy44 on 3/21/2020, 11:18 am

I have the opposite problem, my M41 hates anything remotely labeled "Target".  I have a bunch of Red Box, Black Box, Lapua Master and Midas, and a smattering of other stuff for my smallbore rifle.  NONE of it will function my M41.  CCI works perfectly, so I'm not messing with anything.

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Post by troystaten on 3/21/2020, 4:12 pm

I think the S&W 22 revolvers can have chamber issues from the factory.  My 17-4 had very difficult to extract empties when I got it, after a gunsmith either reamed or polished the chambers the problems ceased to exist, the gun does not care now what I shoot in it.  As for oiling the cylinders the gunsmith that did the work said don't oil the chambers just clean them with Hoppes #9 then a dry patch.  I have since put 10-20k rounds through the gun and it is still happy and the cylinders are clean.

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Post by SMBeyer on 3/22/2020, 6:57 am

I shoot my model 17 a lot with CCI.  I have found that scrubbing the cylinder with a brush and leaving it dry causes brass to stick.  A cotton swab with a little oil rubbed in the cylinders completely solved the issue.  I had to prove I wasnt a moron at the Winchester range and had to shoot some Winchester high velocity through it and that was nearly impossible to eject.
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Post by kjanracing on 3/22/2020, 10:01 pm

I just smack the ejector rod with a small rubber mallet.
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Post by troystaten on 3/22/2020, 10:53 pm

You should not need to use any sort of mallet to eject the empties, if you do you have a revolver with rough chambers or chambers that are too tight.  There are a lot of posts in the S&W forum in the gunsmithing section about this.  Once you fix the problem it will not come back.

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Post by mustachio on 4/1/2020, 2:42 pm

In my Ruger/Volquartsen Scorpion I use CCI for my practice ammo. It does not group nearly as well as Eley 38 gr. Hunting ammo. The Eley is about 1040 fps and is extremely accurate. 
CCI 22 SV = Grrrrr J2D5NRR
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Post by Mac2 on 4/12/2020, 6:57 pm

Finally had a day last week when temp. was above 60 F and watched very carefully while competitor fired bullseye pistol (one hand) with three types of ammo:  CCI "35EU" (factory replacement for unreliable CCI "35" SV) with lot starting with M; CCI SV with lot starting with J; and Aguila Pistol Match.   Apparent recoil seemed equal within ability to judge.  Ejected cases seemed all to go to about the same place.  They all functioned without a hitch and hit 25 yard target with similar reliability.  
A brief test with a supported 208S (in dire need of cleaning) suggested about a 2 inch group at 25 yards with the 35EU.  
Very brief function testing when cold suggests that one needs to fire a few rounds (one at a time) with (the working) CCI SV until it functions reliably - keep magazines in pocket!  The returned SV just was unhappy almost all of the time.

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Post by mikemyers on 4/13/2020, 6:57 am

My new case of CCI LR SV arrived from Champions Choice a week or so ago.  I'm leaving the carton untouched for a while, so if there's any virus on the cardboard, it will die.  Nice that Champions Choice packed the CCI case box in a heavy, thick, protective carton for shipping, so nothing was likely to get damaged as what happened to me last time with Midway.

Unfortunately, while my bags are packed, and I'm ready to go, I haven't gone to the range since a few weeks before I was ordered to stay at home.  Florida is just now beginning to enter "the curve", and while I think shooting at the range would be safe, following the rules is a little safer.

Never heard of "35EU" before - how is it different from what I've buying previously?

......on, and a big Thank You to Champions Choice, for not raising the price as so many others have.
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Post by James Hensler on 4/13/2020, 7:47 am

mustachio wrote:In my Ruger/Volquartsen Scorpion I use CCI for my practice ammo. It does not group nearly as well as Eley 38 gr. Hunting ammo. The Eley is about 1040 fps and is extremely accurate. 
CCI 22 SV = Grrrrr J2D5NRR
Are you using 38 grain for matches?
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Post by james r chapman on 4/13/2020, 7:49 am

Hope not
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Post by mustachio on 4/13/2020, 8:04 am

james r chapman wrote:Hope not
yes, I am for local matches.  I bought a several bricks at a very good price (far lower than seen on most sites). It shoots almost as good as Eley Black box Target and for the price it is well worth it.  Velocity is advertised as 1040 fps. It cycles my Volquartsen/Ruger just fine.

From the NRA Pistol Rule Book.

3.17 Ammunition - (a) Distinguished revolver – refer to Rule 3.3 (e). (b) Any .22 caliber rim fire long rifle cartridge may be used. Only bullets made of lead or similar soft material are permitted. (c) Unless otherwise described in this rulebook, any ammunition of any description may be fired without danger to competitors, range personnel, or equipment. Tracer, incendiary, armor piercing, and similar ammunition is prohibited. 

there is no mention of weight in this clause.
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Post by Mac2 on 4/13/2020, 9:11 am

Answers and bit of history:   35EU is how CCI SV is marked for sale in Europe.  The 50 round boxes have meters/second and fps marked on them.  The individual boxes of 50 appear not to have lot numbers - the case does.  An example with lot starting with M seems to be similar to the old CCI SV.  

Weight of 22LR bullet:  If one reads an old rule book, one will find that 40 grains was specified.  In the days when Camp Perry was still active and I was working as ref., I suggested to the rules committee that eliminating the 40 grain requirement would be a good idea - sure did not want to get into having to pull and weigh bullets - particularly if losers insisted that winner used other than 40 grain ammo.  The committee agreed and removed the 40 grain requirement.   --Someday, we will learn just why Camp Perry's role changed so dramatically.  

Aside:  am seeing big increases in cost of factory ammo.    Mac

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Post by james r chapman on 4/13/2020, 9:16 am

CCI 22 SV = Grrrrr 2935285009
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Post by mustachio on 4/13/2020, 9:26 am

Mac2 wrote:Answers and bit of history:   35EU is how CCI SV is marked for sale in Europe.  The 50 round boxes have meters/second and fps marked on them.  The individual boxes of 50 appear not to have lot numbers - the case does.  An example with lot starting with M seems to be similar to the old CCI SV.  

Weight of 22LR bullet:  If one reads an old rule book, one will find that 40 grains was specified.  In the days when Camp Perry was still active and I was working as ref., I suggested to the rules committee that eliminating the 40 grain requirement would be a good idea - sure did not want to get into having to pull and weigh bullets - particularly if losers insisted that winner used other than 40 grain ammo.  The committee agreed and removed the 40 grain requirement.   --Someday, we will learn just why Camp Perry's role changed so dramatically.  

Aside:  am seeing big increases in cost of factory ammo.    Mac
thank you for that clarification.
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Post by Mac2 on 4/13/2020, 10:07 am

Dear Mustachio:   You are most welcome.
I add that the committee did not think that a competitor (22 rifle or pistol) would have a significant advantage from using other than 40 grain bullets.  An additional consideration (if the 40 grain rule was kept) involved knowing exactly what ammo was fired.  Basic rule:  do not make rules that one might not be able to verify.  

Some 22LR ammo ended up being very sensitive to barrel.  Federal made some for Olympics that (in rifle) started above speed-of-sound - very distinctive sound.  Each lot was either very good or very bad in a particular barrel.  At least they tried to craft an improved round.    Mac

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