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Setting up for my son to shoot

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Setting up for my son to shoot Empty Setting up for my son to shoot

Post by tdeon221 on Thu Apr 02, 2020 7:10 pm

Hi Group,

I plan on setting up my 13-year-old son for bullseye over the coming months.  Have an extra Kowa 50mm angled and found a Gun-Ho 4 pistol box this week for $140.00.  Need a Gil Hebard mount and a magnet strip next.  I have a Marvel conversion and mags for him and was going to buy a Springfield Armory Range Officer in 45 for him.  Another option is having a Smith & Wesson 1911 reworked for him that I already have.  It's the nice carbon steel polished blued version with adjustable sights, Ambi safety, etc...Has anyone had a S&W reworked, or should I not bother?  Looking for the most cost-effective route.  I'll drive it down to Greg Derr for the work.       

Thanks,

Tom D.

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Post by spursnguns on Thu Apr 02, 2020 7:39 pm

Hello Tom D.

To partially sidetrack your thread.  Out of curiosity....

It sure looks like you are jumping in with both feet.  How much experience does your son have?  Has he ever shoot a 900 or a partial match with just a .22?

Baby steps may be more prudent if you want to foster a real enthusiast.

To answer your actual question; if the Smith and Wesson had a reasonable trigger, I would start with that and see how things develop.

Jim
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Post by valbern67 on Thu Apr 02, 2020 7:59 pm

+1 on starting with a .22
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Post by tdeon221 on Thu Apr 02, 2020 8:01 pm

He shoots smallbore rifle and service rifle competitively on my club's junior team.  We'll be taking him to Perry for the first time this year for CMP week for rifle.  We plink with the pistols and he can handle a 1911 fairly well.  He's stout about 5'4" 150 lbs.  His sister is a pretty accomplished service rifle shooter chasing her leg points.  Anything worth doing is worth overdoing.  

Thanks,

Tom

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Setting up for my son to shoot Empty ++1 On starting with a 22 shooting the whole course the whole 2700

Post by xman on Thu Apr 02, 2020 8:05 pm

On starting with a 22 shooting the whole course the whole 2700
He could shoot a full 2700 course and get a classification card for Gill Hebard mount go to bull’s-eye gear.com . Bullseye gear might also have the magnets for your case to hold the magazines
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Post by zanemoseley on Thu Apr 02, 2020 8:12 pm

I wish I'd shot my first year with a 22 only, as mentioned have him shoot the entire 2700 with it and request his scores be recorded as such, he can be classified in the 22 only class. Heck waiting on a good smith  to rebuild a 45 will take most of this year anyway.

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Post by tdeon221 on Thu Apr 02, 2020 8:22 pm

That's a good idea having him shoot the aggregate with the 22.  Hopefully, we'll be able to shoot this year.  I'm trying to decide if I should set the trigger up like a hardball gun at 4 lbs or go lighter so he progresses a little faster. 

Tom

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Post by Allen Barnett on Thu Apr 02, 2020 9:03 pm

Isn't there an age requirement for juniors on shooting anything bigger than 22 in the pistol matches?  Not trying to be a buzz killer just seem to remember reading it somewhere.  And again with the NRA/CMP split I really don't know.  The second thing on building either a Springfield RO or having the S&W re-worked you stated that Greg Derr was going to do the work, give him a call and ask him for his reccomendations.

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Post by tdeon221 on Thu Apr 02, 2020 9:22 pm

He'll be 14 in November. 
  2.4.1 Pistol National Trophy and EIC Matches CMP Service Pistol National Trophy and EIC Matches are open to competitors 14 years of age or older. 22 Rimfire Pistol EIC Matches are open to competitors 12 years of age or older. 2.4.3 Pistol Small Arms Firing School The Pistol SAFS is open to civilian and service members 14 years of age or older. The age limit is 12 years of age if 22 Rimfire Pistols are used in the school.   2.4.5 Other Sanctioned Matches Other CMP-sanctioned matches (Rule 1.0) may use the age restrictions identified in this section. Sponsoring clubs may also have their own age restrictions. 2.4.6 Age Restriction Waivers The CMP or sanctioned match sponsors may waive the age requirement upon the presentation of evidence that the applicant has demonstrated the ability to safely complete the course of fire for that event by completing an appropriate training course with actual range firing or by having safely competed in other similar shooting competitions. 
 I've communicated with Greg, he thinks the Ranger Officer is the best bang for the buck for a Hardball gun.

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Post by PMcfall on Fri Apr 03, 2020 3:30 pm

I was at the range a few years ago, Ransom Resting a couple .45's looking for the load they liked.  About the time I was finishing up, one of my friends who was there shooting rifle showed me his new purchase, a S&W 1911.  I asked him if he wanted to see what it would do out of the RR.  It shot 3-3.5" with several different loads.  At 50 yards of course.

So, the moral of the story is that it might be good enough as is until your son starts shooting high sharpshooter, low expert scores???
Phil
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Post by tdeon221 on Fri Apr 03, 2020 5:58 pm

Hi Phil,

It may be good enough, I have to weigh the trigger to see how close to 4 lbs it is and find someone with a RR to test it.  It may shoot 8", or 3.5" or we can hope for 2.5".  I don't mind putting some money into it if it's only a couple hundred for a bushing and adjust the trigger to make weight for the leg match.  The trigger is ok.  I have some options.  I have a bare frame and slide from a series 70 Colt available for a full build and a Colt Series 80 Enhanced that's already had some work, trigger, sights, but the Colt barrel is junk.  My gun is a Clark built Norinco that shoots well with the refit stock barrel, under 2.5" at 50.  Plenty of guns, it's just put money in one or buy or trade for the Range Officer.  What can I say? I like to spoil my kids with quality hardware.  He gets the Marvel, dad is getting a new Nelson conversion.    

Thanks,
Tom

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Post by James Hensler on Fri Apr 03, 2020 7:01 pm

Tom I truly believe that any 1911 can be made to shoot under 3 inches and it doesn’t take a lot of money. Where the difference is in the quality of the parts! Hear me out! Say you have a high dollar Clark or Accuracy X and they both shoot 2 inch and triggers are perfect and you love them. Your friend isn’t as well off money wise and he uses a cheap 1911 not naming names but he spends money with tightening up the slide to frame and installs a bushing! He has a smith make the trigger 4 lbs ( which is super easy) and it shoots 3 inches! Over time your friend will keep spending money in upkeep to keep the thing shooting around 3 inches! He will end up spending almost as much over time as you did with the high end stuff because your upkeep won’t be much at all. Just my 2 cents
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Post by chiz1180 on Fri Apr 03, 2020 9:43 pm

I have a smith and wesson 1911 that is set up as a wadgun (has a barrel bushing, some trigger work, and frame mount dot), I also have a Range officer that is stock with the exception of a trigger job. The smith is probably a 3.5-4" gun, the range officer is a confirmed 3" gun. The main issues I have with the smith are the extra safety components, makes cleaning it just a bit more time consuming. Both guns will clean the short line, and realistically the range officer has far less invested to do so.

I do believe that a good trigger job is more beneficial to having a superbly accurate gun from a rest, not all 4lb triggers are equal. For a service pistol I would take a 3" gun with an excellent trigger over a 1" that has a terrible trigger.

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Post by tdeon221 on Fri Apr 03, 2020 10:32 pm

James Hensler wrote:Tom I truly believe that any 1911 can be made to shoot under 3 inches and it doesn’t take a lot of money. Where the difference is in the quality of the parts! Hear me out! Say you have a high dollar Clark or Accuracy X and they both shoot 2 inch and triggers are perfect and you love them. Your friend isn’t as well off money wise and he uses a cheap 1911 not naming names but he spends money with tightening up the slide to frame and installs a bushing! He has a smith make the trigger 4 lbs ( which is super easy) and it shoots 3 inches! Over time your friend will keep spending money in upkeep to keep the thing shooting around 3 inches! He will end up spending almost as much over time as you did with the high end stuff because your upkeep won’t be much at all. Just my 2 cents
Hi Jim,

I hear what you're saying and have been down that road before and that's what I'm trying to avoid.  Tool steel internal parts are going to last far longer than injection molded production parts for sure.  The other side of it is shooting now versus having to wait due to financial limitations or factors out of our control.  We all know how interesting some gunsmiths can be to deal with and how they measure time.  I'll gladly take your two cents, thanks.  

Best,

Tom

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Post by Ghillieman on Fri Apr 03, 2020 11:22 pm

Start with the .22 only!
There is a lot to learn and starting too early with the .45 can destroy what he is learning with the .22.
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Post by tdeon221 on Sat Apr 04, 2020 10:38 am

Ghillieman wrote:Start with the .22 only!
There is a lot to learn and starting too early with the .45 can destroy what he is learning with the .22.
I will, gets him shooting now with an accurate gun with a good trigger developing the fundamentals.  He's already saying that it's harder than shooting a rifle, all I say to him is front sight, accept your wobble area and the trigger is always moving.  If it was easy everyone would do it.

Thanks,

Tom

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Post by tdeon221 on Sat Apr 04, 2020 10:41 am

chiz1180 wrote:I have a smith and wesson 1911 that is set up as a wadgun (has a barrel bushing, some trigger work, and frame mount dot), I also have a Range officer that is stock with the exception of a trigger job. The smith is probably a 3.5-4" gun, the range officer is a confirmed 3" gun. The main issues I have with the smith are the extra safety components, makes cleaning it just a bit more time consuming. Both guns will clean the short line, and realistically the range officer has far less invested to do so.

I do believe that a good trigger job is more beneficial to having a superbly accurate gun from a rest, not all 4lb triggers are equal. For a service pistol I would take a 3" gun with an excellent trigger over a 1" that has a terrible trigger.
Thanks for that info and your experiences.  The smith does seem like a good base gun, just don't want to dump a grand into it in the end vs. buying a range officer.  I'd rather just trade it for the RO.  Maybe get lucky and trade and get a modest amount of cash towards a trigger job.  We'll see.  Need to borrow a Ransom Rest and evaluate further.

Thanks,

Tom

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Post by James Hensler on Sat Apr 04, 2020 3:44 pm

Idea! 
Buy yourself a new pistol and give him your hand me down
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Post by tdeon221 on Sat Apr 04, 2020 3:46 pm

Be a hell of a hand me down

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