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Post by Schaumannk on Thu Jun 04, 2020 7:41 pm

A friend just noticed on the Precision pistol web site that the CMP is requiring everyone to sign a notarized waver.  It doesn’t make much sense as they are saying that the CMP isn’t going to keep them on file, and that individual clubs need to take care that all their members have them on file?  If the CMP doesn’t want them,  and we shoot matches at more than one club, what are we supposed to do?  Laminate the darn thing and store it in our gun boxes? Notarization is often not a free or easy process. Seems like another meaningless admin hoop for shooters to jump thru.  

I have signed a lot of waivers before, but never one that had to be notarized.  And once you sign it, how long is it good for?  

Anyone know anything more about this?  Will they ask for them from now on for any CMP sponsored match, including all LEG matches?  Are they asking for them at Cardinal?  

https://precisionshootingmatches.com/wp-content/uploads/2020/01/CMP-Affidavit.pdf

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Post by Allen Barnett on Thu Jun 04, 2020 7:56 pm

Okay so now for the $64,000 question!! Upper right hand corner has a blank spot for a competitor ,number.  If you don't have one how can you complete the form as a legal document without one?  Just kind of playing the devil's advocate here.

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Post by chiz1180 on Thu Jun 04, 2020 9:00 pm

Call the CMP and ask.

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Post by Schaumannk on Thu Jun 04, 2020 9:15 pm

chiz1180 wrote:Call the CMP and ask.
I don’t know about you, but I usually get the run around from big organizations like the CMP.  The answer is always “yes”:you need it” then you jump thru all the hoops, and the expense, and they never even ask to see it where you shoot.  

 I am more interested in whether or not they will ask for it at Bristol, and Cardinal, which is really my question, and is there going to be a notary on hand for those that show up without one?

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Post by chiz1180 on Fri Jun 05, 2020 9:01 am

Then it sounds like your question should be directed to Bristol and Cardinal. In my experience people at both are very helpful.

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Post by Schaumannk on Fri Jun 05, 2020 9:12 am

chiz1180 wrote:Then it sounds like your question should be directed to Bristol and Cardinal. In my experience people at both are very helpful.
Maybe, but there are people on this board who shoot matches at Bristol and Cardinal.  There is nothing  from Bristol in their match bulletin indicating that they are requiring this.   I had hoped to avoid Calling Jim Henderson (board member at the CMP) at Cardinal and asking.  He is a busy guy.  I’m in Wyoming.    Lots of shooters in Ohio who might know, and if they really are requiring it, on this board other people are travel long distances to shoot matches might want to know,  So I view this as a public service question.  Don’t you?

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Post by CR10X on Fri Jun 05, 2020 12:17 pm

Seems pretty clear for Sanctioned Matches, Clinics, EIC or Non EIC Matches.  Sometimes in the Instruction, sometimes in the Application? I suppose you only have to do it once since they had mine on file for Perry last time, but that issue is not that clear and not exactly what the instructions say.

INSTRUCTIONS TO CONDUCT A CMP SANCTIONED MATCH OR CLINIC 

A CMP-sanctioned match or clinic is an event hosted or sponsored by a CMP affiliated organization where match sponsors agree to use CMP Competition Rules in conducting their events and clinic sponsors agree to follow CMP standards for the conduct of clinics. CMP Sanctioned Matches may be offered for M1 Garand, Springfield, Vintage Military, Rimfire Sporter, M1 Carbine, Modern Military, Unlimited Garand, Unlimited Modern Military, Vintage Sniper, Standard Smallbore Pistol, As-Issued 1911 Pistol Match & Military & Police Pistol Match. Clinics may be offered for M1 Garand, Springfield, Vintage Military, Rimfire Sporter, M1 Carbine, Unlimited Garand and Modern Military. Please read these instructions prior to completing this application. If you have questions or need additional information, please contact the CMP Competition Support staff at 419-635-2141, ext. 706 or kfilipiak@thecmp.org. REQUIREMENTS FOR MATCH AND CLINIC SPONSORS. Organizations that sponsor CMPSanctioned Clinics or Matches must fulfill these requirements: 

6. Obtain and retain on file a notarized Eligibility Affidavit and Liability Agreement for all match and clinic participants. A copy of the Eligibility Affidavit and Liability Agreement is located on the CMP web site at. These forms are required by the federal law that established the CMP. http://thecmp.org/wp-content/uploads/Affidavit.pdf 7. Submit a CMP Sanctioned Match or Clinic Report and the scorecards of all competitors who fired in any sanctioned match to the CMP within seven days after the match.

INSTRUCTIONS TO CONDUCT A CMP MATCH (Non-EIC) [2700 Match Pistol Type Match] - added to clarify this type of match

6. Obtain and retain on file a notarized Eligibility Affidavit and Liability Agreement for all match participants. A copy of the Eligibility Affidavit and Liability Agreement is located on the CMP web site at http://thecmp.org/wp-content/uploads/Affidavit.pdf. These forms are required by the federal law that established the CMP

APPLICATION TO CONDUCT A CMP SERVICE PISTOL EXCELLENCE-IN-COMPETITION MATCH

6. Require all competitors to comply with CMP eligibility requirements including the requirement to provide a notarized CMP Eligibility Affidavit and Liability Agreement. Note: These agreements are required by federal law and must be kept on file at the sponsoring club. The CMP will confirm eligibility to compete in the EIC match

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Post by brassmaster on Fri Jun 05, 2020 1:06 pm

Schaumannk wrote:
chiz1180 wrote:Then it sounds like your question should be directed to Bristol and Cardinal. In my experience people at both are very helpful.
Maybe, but there are people on this board who shoot matches at Bristol and Cardinal.  There is nothing  from Bristol in their match bulletin indicating that they are requiring this.   I had hoped to avoid Calling Jim Henderson (board member at the CMP) at Cardinal and asking.  He is a busy guy.  I’m in Wyoming.    Lots of shooters in Ohio who might know, and if they really are requiring it, on this board other people are travel long distances to shoot matches might want to know,  So I view this as a public service question.  Don’t you?

In my opinion, you have raised some valid questions.  I've never been to any club's match that I was asked to sign the CMP Wavier and that it would be notarized. I have been told by match officials that as long as a competitor has attended a CMP event such as Camp Perry, Talladega, etc. and signed the wavier, there was no need to sign one at every event as CMP has it on file. Continuing, yes, I know that each trip to Camp Perry every competitor is required to sign the wavier at check in and that task seems paramount to any other aspect of registering. Obviously, it is easier and faster during the crush occurring at Camp Perry registration to require everyone to sign a wavier instead of seaching their database to verify a signed wavier is on file. Here is a question for some competitors to ruminate and cogitate. When you signed the wavier as part of the check in process, did you see an Ohio Notary Public standing there witnessing your signature on the document? In all my trips to Camp Perry, I have never seen my signature to the wavier, or other competitors at the registration table have their signature witnessed by a notary at the time of signing. What I do see is at each CMP employee/volunteer's computer station accepting registrations is a stack of signed waivers beside their computer and a logical assumption is they are all  waiting for an Ohio Notary to witness them and apply their notary seal at some later time and place .It has been my understanding of notary law that the document must be signed in their presence and their signature and notary stamp verifies they have verified your identity and witnessed your signature. So does this invalidate the wavier? Not trying to pick fly sh*t out of pepper, but Schaumannk has, in my opinion raised some valid questions.
" ... if the document requires an oath/affirmation notarial act, the witnesses will always be present because the signer is required to sign in the presence of the notary as part of the performance of the notarial act..."
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Post by chiz1180 on Fri Jun 05, 2020 2:58 pm

Schaumannk wrote:
chiz1180 wrote:Then it sounds like your question should be directed to Bristol and Cardinal. In my experience people at both are very helpful.
Maybe, but there are people on this board who shoot matches at Bristol and Cardinal.  There is nothing  from Bristol in their match bulletin indicating that they are requiring this.   I had hoped to avoid Calling Jim Henderson (board member at the CMP) at Cardinal and asking.  He is a busy guy.  I’m in Wyoming.    Lots of shooters in Ohio who might know, and if they really are requiring it, on this board other people are travel long distances to shoot matches might want to know,  So I view this as a public service question.  Don’t you?

I actually do live in Ohio. Unfortunately we have not yet had any CMP sanctioned matches this year (Canton and Cardinal had to cancel their May monthly CMP matches), so as to if it has been required I can not answer that. Your question directly relates to how Cardinal and Bristol are planning on running the match, In my opinion it is best to reach out and ask them directly, especially if you have extensive travel. Personally, I am going to be at the sign in/practice day on the 29th at Cardinal, if they need a notarized wavier I will be more than happy to go find a notary to make it happen, getting something notarized is not that big of a deal.

I also am very aware that Jim Henderson is a very busy guy, especially after taking on the Pistol Program Coordinator position at the CMP, in addition to the other responsibilities he previously maintained. With that said, the match is being held at the range he runs. My suggestion would be to reach out, ask your question directly and patiently wait for a response.

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Post by Schaumannk on Fri Jun 05, 2020 3:03 pm

“Personally, I am going to be at the sign in/practice day on the 29th at Cardinal, if they need a notarized wavier I will be more than happy to go find a notary to make it happen, getting something notarized is not that big of a deal.”

Great!  So you will be paying the notary for our waivers too?  Thanks.  We appreciate that.

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Post by chiz1180 on Fri Jun 05, 2020 3:08 pm

If you are concerned of a possibility of needing a $5 notary you should reevaluate your priorities.

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Post by Schaumannk on Fri Jun 05, 2020 3:21 pm

chiz1180 wrote:If you are concerned of a possibility of needing a $5 notary you should reevaluate your priorities.
Last time I had to hire a traveling notary, it was 35 bucks for the first document.  10 for each document after that.  If they had  to travel to the range, or after hours, it may be more.  

It is possible for me to get it done at my credit union for free, but in this time of Covid, I will have to make an appointment and a 20 mile round trip.  

Not exactly hassle or cost free.  

I have emailed Jim Henderson.   Several other match directors have responded already, and said, for different reasons that I would not need this waiver at their match, either because they have their own, or my already having signed one at Perry 11 times.  (Not notarized though)

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Post by CR10X on Sun Jun 07, 2020 10:05 am

I believe this is the correct reference, but be sure to check yourself. I am not a lawyer and do not provide any opinion on this whatsoever. Just providing what I could find as a reference. The document is not long and has some pretty interesting parts.  The term used is "certify by affidavit", not waiver or other form.  


From the 1998 legislation that turned the CMP into an Corporation, etc.  Note "shall" in (a)(1) and "may" in (a)(2).  No mention of how many times or who keeps the record.  


36 U.S. Code § 40723. Eligibility for participation 
U.S. Code


(a)Certification.—


(1)An individual shall certify by affidavit, before participating in an activity sponsored or supported by the corporation, that the individual—
(A)has not been convicted of a felony;
(B)has not been convicted of a violation of section 922 of title 18; and
(C)is not a member of an organization that advocates the violent overthrow of the United States Government.


(2)The Director of Civilian Marksmanship may require an individual to provide certification from law enforcement agencies to verify that the individual has not been convicted of a felony or a violation of section 922 of title 18.


(Pub. L. 105–225, Aug. 12, 1998, 112 Stat. 1337.)


If you call up the entire 36 U.S. Code CHAPTER 407 it's interesting reading about national match locations and NRA matches.


Last edited by CR10X on Sun Jun 07, 2020 2:45 pm; edited 1 time in total

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Post by rkittine on Sun Jun 07, 2020 10:24 am

In New York the most a Notary is allowed to charge is $2.00 and most banks do it for free.

Bob
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Post by Schaumannk on Sun Jun 07, 2020 7:45 pm

rkittine wrote:In New York the most a Notary is allowed to charge is $2.00 and most banks do it for free.

Bob
I bet it is very hard in New York to get a notary to come to a nursing home.  Or anywhere else since they won’t be able to cover their travel expenses.  

We can get them done at the our banks and credit union for free also.   Don’t know if you have noticed but the lobby services have been closed for three months now, with no sign as to when they will reopen.

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Post by chopper on Mon Jun 08, 2020 8:53 am

"We can get them done at the our banks and credit union for free also.   Don’t know if you have noticed but the lobby services have been closed for three months now, with no sign as to when they will reopen." 


  I don't think they'll open until we stop wearing protective mask either.  
Stan

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Post by Schaumannk on Mon Jun 08, 2020 9:07 am

I have the answer for all who are interested.   Got this email from Jim Henderson.   


Hi Kate,
I'll do my best to have a notary here at the match. If not I'll come up with something, but don't let that form deter you or your friends from coming to the match. 

Thanks again and I look forward to seeing all of you on the range!

Jim Henderson

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