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Time usage in Rapid Fire

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Post by mikemyers 6/18/2020, 10:20 am

First topic message reminder :

"Rapid Fire" means taking five shots in 10 seconds.
While waiting for the buzzer, it's relatively easy to get ready for that first shot.  
For simplification, suppose you take the shot instantly, and you now have 10 seconds to take the remaining four shots.


  1. Part of that time has to be re-acquiring the red dot in your sight, if you're using optics.
  2. Part of that time has to be aiming the gun.
  3. Part of the time is used to smoothly actuate the trigger, without disturbing the gun.
  4. Then there is the small amount of time that gets used up as the gun fires, moves up to your left (for right hand shooters), and stops.


I imagine someone like CR can do this blindfolded, in his sleep, while thinking about something unrelated to shooting.
For me, it takes an annoyingly length of wasted time just getting the dot back into the middle of the red dot sight.


Assuming you guys think this is a reasonable explanation, my question is how to minimize the time it takes to re-acquire the red dot.
......and if you can already do that, how did you learn to do it?

(.....or plan B is for me to give up on red dots, and use steel sights, where I will see the front sight and the target, and need to put one in front of the other.)

(....and the best thing I can think of is to hold the gun in front of me for a very long time, waving it all over, all around me, and learn how to keep the red dot in the sight.  After doing this for days, weeks, months, whatever, maybe I'll be able to do it without thinking about it.)
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Post by DA/SA 7/3/2020, 5:33 am

That tilted, off center, misaligned, too tall reflex sight would drive me crazy in a matter of minutes! Your subconscious is probably trying to align something to the target when you point the gun.

Just my opinion, but a 1" Ultradot on low rings would solve half of your problems with finding the dot. 

But to be fair, my OCD is triggered by a lack of symmetry...
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Post by mikemyers 7/3/2020, 10:40 am

Well, I "stole" the good sight from my Springfield to put onto my Caspian.  Now I'm starting to like the Springfield more than the Caspian.  I think I'll move the Aimpoint H-1 back to the Springfield today.  (That will solve your concerns.  :-)    )

By the way,  while I do appreciate "symmetry", I've been a photographer since the 1950's, and I've learned that the only thing I need to pay attention to is what is INSIDE the viewfinder. I do understand what you mean, but the trade off was either $$$ and/or more weight, vs a lighter sight.  The weight was a bigger factor.  The "tilted, off-center, misaligned, and tall  reflex sight" was compensated for, by having a sight that was lighter and shows a wider field of view.  

If I decide to hang onto my Nelson kit, I'll keep the Caspian around too, to mount the Nelson on.  If I sell the Nelson, I'll likely put the Caspian up for sale.  I don't want to spend yet another $500 or so for a third Aimpoint Micro.......



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Post by mikemyers 7/3/2020, 11:48 am

For DA/SA:

I aligned everything the best I can do.
Anyone here want to sell me a 1" Ultradot with low rings?
Does anyone sell low rings for the standard Matchdot II - these look much higher than necessary.

Found them:  https://www.bullseyeforum.net/t7767-matchdot-ii-scope-rings

Hmm, never mind.  I already bought a pair from someone here a year or two ago - they came on a Matchdot II I bought from him.
Will have them installed by this evening.  Height is coming down, but weight is going up.   :-(

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Post by DA/SA 7/3/2020, 12:52 pm

The setup that I have just looks to be a while lot lower than yours above.

Time usage in Rapid Fire - Page 4 3v1X2QTl
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Post by mikemyers 7/3/2020, 2:41 pm

I bought a Matchdot II from someone on the forum quite a while back, and it came with mounts that split horizontally.  It lowered my sight maybe 1/4", not.  quite as much as what you show in your photo.  I think your rail might also be lower.

I never used the mounts because they are much heavier than the stock ones, but I put them on today anyway. There are 12 clamp screws up on top to tighten things in place, and below there is a "plate", then a washer, then a lock-washer, and finally a large nut.  The screws have a rectangular shape that drops right into Jon Eulette's rail.  I'll find out this coming Monday how well it works.  I suspect there will be more people at the range over the weekend that I want to deal with.

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Post by CR10X 7/3/2020, 3:10 pm

You know, I'm going to give up on Mike before long. Anyone who can pose a question in Fundamentals about getting better in rapid fire and then devolve into a discussion on which grip is right and scopes, etc., is probably destined for a long road to understanding. Same with the anxiety post in General Discussion. It's kinda like you shine a light on something and he only looks at the shadows.

By the way, when the advise was given about working on the grip how come you went directly to what it looks like rather than consistency throughout the string? Consistent grip pressure and position are way more important than minute differences in position of wrist and fingers, etc. Find something you can do exactly the same for 10 or 20 seconds and get with shooting, not distracted by thinking.

Sorry, don't mean to offend; but phone, bourbon (a bad combination) and a beautiful deck at a B&B Lodge in Asheville near the Asheville Rifle and Pistol Club has loosened my tongue (& typing fingers)...

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Post by mikemyers 7/3/2020, 3:29 pm

(For better or worse, that's the way I think, and the way I've always thought and done things, going in many different directions at once.  That's how my brain was "wired" I guess.  Even in this thread, one thought leads to others, and they lead to yet more others.  To me, all those things going on eventually do lead to a conclusion.

Sorry if my "scatterbrained" thinking is inappropriate for a forum.  I can easily stop posting this way, but I can't change the way my mind works.  I'm not even sure I would want to.)

No offense taken, and feel free to say anything you wish to, good AND bad.  But before you "give up on me", also consider how much I've already learned from you and others in this forum.  The help is very much appreciated.

What I will try to do from now on, is slow down, and not post so much, and spend even more time reading, than writing.  Sorry.)


Last edited by mikemyers on 7/3/2020, 3:30 pm; edited 1 time in total (Reason for editing : forgot the final ")".)
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Post by CR10X 7/3/2020, 3:35 pm

No problem, just focus on one thing at a time. Consistency is the key, Get good at what you CAN do, then try something different. Someone that constantly changes their swing will never be a great golfer. Someone that never changes will never be a champion.
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Post by mikemyers 7/6/2020, 12:44 pm

CR10X wrote:No problem,  just focus on one thing at a time.   Consistency is the key,  Get good at what you CAN do,  then try something different. Someone that constantly changes their swing will never be a great golfer.  Someone that never changes will never be a champion.
CR
OK, will do.  One (1) thing at a time.

I went to the range with the Salyer Springfield, with Matchdot II on top.  This is after non-stop dry-firing ever since last Thursday, but no live firing.  It took me three targets to get the gun sighted in, then I spent the next hour trying to do everything exactly as I learned to do, and practiced, in my living room.  This means Dave Salyer's area aiming (not aiming for the bullseye), and following Cranky Thunder's suggestion to start applying pressure to the trigger early, and constantly continue adding pressure to the trigger, where my subconscious will hopefully eventually apply enough pressure for the gun to fire.  I tried to keep the wobble moving around inside the black of my shoot-n-see targets - I was going to eventually put B-8 targets up, but the rain led to an early end for my shooting.  I didn't mark the position, but my feet went in the same place for each string.  My hand went to the same place and position as well.     Result:  All the holes were inside, or touching, the black.  I then slowly increased my pace, working up to where I was shooting at a "timed fire" pace.

Rapid Fire:
When I was satisfied, I loaded 5 rounds each in four magazines, and tried to shoot at a rapid-fire pace, but making sure I was aiming every shot.  For the first time ever, the gun recovered to where the red dot was inside the sight area, or close.  The issues that prompted me to post this thread in the first place were gone.  This coming Friday I'll shoot the "match" course, assuming it's not raining.


I'm not going to waste too much time wondering why things were better, instead, I'm just going to do things exactly the same in the future.  I think lots of practice helped, and I also know all that "stuff" sitting on top of the slide WEIGHS a lot more than my Aimpoint Micro on my Salyer Caspian.  

As to "one thing at a time", I'm probably going to post a for sale notice in the forum for my Salyer Caspian.  They may both be 45 wad guns, but they don't feel the same to me.
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Post by Jack H 7/6/2020, 2:55 pm

Has it been simply said yet to reacquire the dot, don't lose it in the first place.  Perhaps the training should be centered there.
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Post by mikemyers 7/6/2020, 3:39 pm

Jack H wrote:........don't lose it in the first place.....
Long ago, I was taught that with a red dot sight, I can either focus on the target, and put the dot over the target, or focus on the dot, placing it over the target.  I chose the first way, concentrating on the target, and bringing the gun up until the dot is over the target.  When the gun fires, it quickly moves up and to my left.  On a 22, what you write might sound plausible, but with a 45?
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Post by Jack H 7/6/2020, 4:58 pm

My point was to prevent losing the dot.  Not how to find it.  Look for why this losing the dot happens.  Learn and train on the technique and strengths to naturally recover in recoil where the dot comes back from recoil right where it should.  In the learning process I suggest focus on the dot.  Zins said he comes back to the dot at times.
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Post by mikemyers 7/6/2020, 5:32 pm

Jack H wrote:......Look for why this losing the dot happens.  Learn and train on the technique and strengths to naturally recover in recoil where the dot comes back from recoil right where it should....
I agree.  Will work on it.
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Post by mikemyers 7/11/2020, 10:28 pm

I learned something new this evening.  I'll post it here in case anyone else finds it useful.

For many weeks now I've  been shooting my 45, and the High Standard has been sitting at home.  Since the 45 is now down, waiting for an extractor, I got out the High Standard to dry-fire.  The  first thing I noticed was that the front of the gun "vibrated" a lot, meaning the dot did the same.  On a whim, I put a physical therapy one pound wrist weight over the barrel, and held up the gun.  Minimal movement.  Good.....

So, I mounted the barrel weight that I got a week or two ago from Alan Aronstein.  The "vibration" if that's a good word, was greatly diminished.  Then I moved the Aimpoint H-2 sight from as far back as I could mount it, up to as far front as I could mount it.  The gun immediately became more stable.  Will try this out at the range Monday.  I would go tomorrow, but it would likely be crowded, in which case I'd make a u-turn and return home.  Social Distancing on steroids.....    ....but to continue:

What I was NOT expecting, was that while before, I only saw a black "ring" (the rear end of the Aimpoint), with "glass" from edge to edge, now, with the sight moved further away from my eye, I also saw a little of the front end of the sight - it appeared as a grayish ring, inside the black ring from the rear end of the sight.


  • When the dot was in the middle, these two rings were concentric, as they should be.
  • BUT, if the sight was pointing any direction other than straight ahead, not only were the two circles not concentric, it became obvious which way I needed to move the gun to fix this.
  • More importantly, making them concentric instantly put the red dot right in the middle, no need to hunt for it.


Eventually, I hope I learn by lots of practice to do this naturally.  All the junk I'm writing now is just a "crutch" to correct a problem that I hope I grow out of. 
Maybe eventually, sights will include this as a feature. 

Anyone with an Aimpoint who wants to try this, it's easy.  Just hold the sight way out in front of you, while turned on.  You'll see a black circle for the back end of the sight, and the red dot, and a smaller gray ring inside the black ring.  Just watch what happens to the inner ring, and the dot, as you deliberately move the gun around.  If the dot moves out of sight, that front ring will instantly tell you which way to move the gun to put the dot back in the middle.

Gee, what I just wrote is probably as clear as mud.  My mental buddy Confucius suggested I take two photos to illustrate what I'm trying to say:

1) Everything here is good, the dot is centered.
Time usage in Rapid Fire - Page 4 Img_2711


2) And in this photo the dot is missing, because it way off-center, but by also seeing the "front inside ring" it's obvious which way to adjust the gun.
Time usage in Rapid Fire - Page 4 Img_2712


Again, this is NOT a long term solution.  I hope that a few weeks from now, I'll be doing this without consciously even thinking about it - if I move the gun in front of my eye, the dot should be centered in the sight.  For me, today, at my current level of ability, I'll no longer be "hunting" for the dot.   :-)     Practice makes perfect, and I can do this endlessly at home in dry-fire, until I do it naturally.


Or, just take a roll of toilet paper, hold it out in front of your eye, and see what happens to the "hole" when the roll isn't pointing directly in front of your eye.  Same thing.
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