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Double Alibi

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straybrit
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Double Alibi Empty Double Alibi

Post by james r chapman 7/5/2020, 6:37 pm

What is it?
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Double Alibi Empty Re: Double Alibi

Post by chiz1180 7/5/2020, 6:45 pm

As I understand it, a double alibi is when you have two alibis within the same course of fire. You are allowed one alibi per match e.g. one in a national match course. You can re-fire the first alibi but not the second.
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Double Alibi Empty Re: Double Alibi

Post by -TT- 7/5/2020, 7:16 pm

In other words there is no such thing Smile The second failure is on you, no alibi.

I guess it's possible if a range issue occurs on the alibi round. But that's a "range alibi" and a special case.

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Double Alibi Empty Re: Double Alibi

Post by sbtzc 7/6/2020, 1:29 pm

I heard the term used to refer to a malfunction while shooting an alibi string. That can really screw with your mental game if you let it.
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Double Alibi Empty Re: Double Alibi

Post by Jack H 7/6/2020, 3:02 pm

If a pistol has alibis from only feed failures 2 or more times, can the pistol be ruled "disabled"?
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Double Alibi Empty Re: Double Alibi

Post by chiz1180 7/6/2020, 3:27 pm

From the 2020 NRA rule book:
9.5 Disabled Pistol - A disabled pistol is one: (a) That cannot be safely aimed or fired (b) That has suffered damage so it cannot be fired or will not function properly (c) That has suffered the loss of a sight or damage to the sights. The fact that sights are improperly adjusted does not constitute disablement. A pistol once declared disabled by the Range Officer shall not again be used for competitive firing until the defect has been corrected and until the pistol has been ruled as safe by the Chief Range Officer. (For procedure in case of a disabled pistol see Rules 10.9 and 10.10. For refiring privileges see Rule 9.14.)
From how I read this, specifically part b, you can disable a pistol that has failure to feed even only once. 


Refiring Rules (as it is referenced above)
9.14 Refiring - (a) No competitor will fire more than one score for the same award except as provided in the program or in accordance with Rule 14.10. (b) In single stage matches composed of several strings of fire only one refire per match will be allowed. (c) In multiple stage matches one refire will be allowed in the slow fire stage and one refire will be allowed in the combined timed and rapid fire stages. (d) Refires of slow fire refires are to be fired immediately after the relay in which the refire occurred. (e) Refires as a result of
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Double Alibi Empty Re: Double Alibi

Post by CR10X 7/6/2020, 5:06 pm

Basically, a "Double Alibi" covers the occasion where the shooter has already had one allowed alibi and either another alibi during the same match or on the refire string. In either event, the shooter will be charged with firing five rounds for the refire string or the string during which the second alibi occurred no matter how many rounds were actually fired. Therefore the shooter loses 10 points per unfired round for those strings. That sends your score into the pits pretty fast.

And provides a pretty good incentive to get the gun fixed or get better reloads!

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Double Alibi Empty Re: Double Alibi

Post by rreid 7/6/2020, 8:13 pm

Been there, done that. No alibis are are good. A double alibi will ruin your day.
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Double Alibi Empty Re: Double Alibi

Post by james r chapman 7/6/2020, 8:33 pm

Got it!
Thanks!
Just another term for FUBAR
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Double Alibi Empty Re: Double Alibi

Post by chiz1180 7/6/2020, 8:48 pm

Good way to put it. In general its always best to have your stuff run 100%. It is always a good feeling to finish a match with zero equipment issues.
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Double Alibi Empty Re: Double Alibi

Post by zanemoseley 7/6/2020, 9:51 pm

chiz1180 wrote:Good way to put it. In general its always best to have your stuff run 100%. It is always a good feeling to finish a match with zero equipment issues.

This is my goal as well. I never want to take a gun and ammo combo you're not confident in. It seems especially true when it comes to 22 pistols, I had a S&W 41 and a Marvel that really ruined some matches, still got the Marvel after several trips to be fixed but the 41 is gone. Even if a gun will shoot flawless 99/100 rounds that's not good enough, you're always wondering when the 1/100 will strike.

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Double Alibi Empty Re: Double Alibi

Post by radjag 7/6/2020, 11:32 pm

Interesting.

I continue to be confused by the Alibi rules.

At Canton in my final Match - the CMP EIC Service Pistol - my gun failed to feed the final round, twice! In the second string of TF and again in the second string of RF.

I carefully asked the RSO both times what course of action should I take. I re-fired 5 rounds both times. I'm pretty sure that is not correct. But, no matter, my score was worse than irrelevant!

I would like to know what is the correct course of action - for future reference - excuse me, I'm a very old Newbie!

What really annoys me is that this was with by far the most expensive gun I own (a notable 1911) and using the most expensive ammo I ever shoot (Federal 45ACP GMM 185). Grrrr. And Grrrrr again!

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Double Alibi Empty Re: Double Alibi

Post by Oleg G 7/7/2020, 5:34 am

Roy,

The RSO was correct. Alibis a re allowed once per match. The 900 Tournament consists of four separate matches:
1. Slow Fire Match - 2 strings of 10 shots
2. National Match Course - 1 string of 10 shots in slow fire; 2 strings of 5 shots in timed fire and 2 strings of 5 shots in rapid fire
3. Time Fire Match - four strings of 5 shots
4. Rapid Fire Match - four stings of 5 shots

You had alibis in two different matches, hence you were allowed to shoot re-fire strings.

Regards,
Oleg.
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Double Alibi Empty Re: Double Alibi

Post by radjag 7/7/2020, 5:46 am

Sorry Oleg.
It was in the CMP EIC Service Pistol National Match, not a 900.

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Double Alibi Empty Re: Double Alibi

Post by TonyH 7/7/2020, 5:54 am

radjag wrote:Interesting.

I continue to be confused by the Alibi rules.

At Canton in my final Match - the CMP EIC Service Pistol - my gun failed to feed the final round, twice! In the second string of TF and again in the second string of RF.

I carefully asked the RSO both times what course of action should I take. I re-fired 5 rounds both times. I'm pretty sure that is not correct. But, no matter, my score was worse than irrelevant!

I would like to know what is the correct course of action - for future reference - excuse me, I'm a very old  Newbie!

What really annoys me is that this was with by far the most expensive gun I own (a notable 1911) and using the most expensive ammo I ever shoot (Federal 45ACP GMM 185). Grrrr. And Grrrrr again!
Roy,
Since this was a 30 shot NMC, only one refire (for the combined TF and RF stages) should have been allowed and not two.
This excerpt from the CMP rulebook addresses it:
5.1.5 Malfunctions
A malfunction is the failure of the pistol or ammunition to function properly. A competitor with a malfunction may complete a series once when a malfunction occurs during the slow-fire series and may refire a series once when a malfunction occurs during the combined timed and rapid-fire stages of a National Match Course or Presidents Match Course. Competitors are allowed one series completion or refire during each of the slow, timed and rapid-fire stages of 900-point aggregate matches.


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Double Alibi Empty Re: Double Alibi

Post by radjag 7/7/2020, 5:59 am

Thanks Tony,

Yes, I thought so.

Anyhow. No harm done. My score was appalling already regardless of Alibi's.

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Double Alibi Empty Re: Double Alibi

Post by CR10X 7/7/2020, 5:59 am

Ah, here's a Fundamental for EIC matches.  You need to be absolutely sure about your and that actual ammo for 500 or more rounds (in a row) without any malfunctions or issues. 

Yes, you were incorrectly given a refire string. 


CMP 2020 Pistol Rules
5.1.5 Malfunctions
A malfunction is the failure of the pistol or ammunition to function properly. A
competitor with a malfunction may complete a series once when a malfunction
occurs during the slow-fire series and may refire a series once when a
malfunction occurs during the combined timed and rapid-fire stages of a
National Match Course or Presidents Match Course. Competitors are allowed
one series completion or refire during each of the slow, timed and rapid-fire
stages of 900-point aggregate matches.

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Double Alibi Empty Re: Double Alibi

Post by TampaTim 7/7/2020, 8:29 pm

Why do 22 bullets only misfire during sustained fire and never in slow fire?

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Double Alibi Empty Re: Double Alibi

Post by john bickar 7/7/2020, 8:56 pm

Why does a Walther GSP only malfunction at the World Championships?

And if it's going to malfunction, why does it decide to do it twice in one 30-round series of Rapid Fire Pistol, at the World Championships?

Why does it also happen to your teammate, when your team is on pace for a gold medal at the World Championships?

Dunno...
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Double Alibi Empty Re: Double Alibi

Post by straybrit 7/7/2020, 9:18 pm

OK - I think we can agree that you won the 'ouch' award for the day John. Maybe the year.

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Double Alibi Empty Re: Double Alibi

Post by zanemoseley 7/7/2020, 9:26 pm

That's right up there with the guy that lost at nationals due to a bad Matchdot. I think Jon's got a couple of nasty ones too.

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Double Alibi Empty Re: Double Alibi

Post by Ghillieman 7/11/2020, 1:25 am

Double alibis are the worst. I shoot an alibi string with another 5rd mag ready to go, just in case, and I have used it a few times.
In this game accuracy is great, but function is final.
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Double Alibi Empty Re: Double Alibi

Post by dronning 7/11/2020, 3:36 am

Ghillieman wrote:Double alibis are the worst. I shoot an alibi string with another 5rd mag ready to go, just in case, and I have used it a few times.
In this game accuracy is great, but function is final.
+1 on a spare mag.  A few years back we won the MN State Team match when during an alibi I had another jam on my 2nd round.  I was able to clear the gun, grab that "3rd" mag and get off all 4 of my shots.  They all scored in the repair center, enough that we won by 2 points.  Never give up!
- Dave

Oh and I figured out later the batch of bullets I was using had excess lube issues I hadn't noticed.  I changed bullets and my loading process.
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Double Alibi Empty Re: Double Alibi

Post by Ed Hall 7/11/2020, 4:00 pm

I like success stories, even if they aren't mine:

When I was still on the AF Team, Jason Meidinger was winning for the Marines and at the InterService Pistol Matches one of those years, there was a shoot-off for the .45 Rapid Fire Match - one Rapid Fire target.  Jason had a jam on one of the strings and was granted a refire.  During the refire, another jam occurred!  He cleared the jam and fired the last round(s) within the time.  His score was, of course, 100 with enough Xs to win the shoot-off!

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Double Alibi Empty Re: Double Alibi

Post by jwax 7/11/2020, 6:28 pm

Question Ed- If he "cleared the jam", doesn't that involve ejecting a cartridge?
That would put him 10 points down.
Which brings up a question- Is it legal to load 6 rounds, just in case?
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