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Double Alibi

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straybrit
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CR10X
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Double Alibi - Page 2 Empty Double Alibi

Post by james r chapman 7/5/2020, 6:37 pm

First topic message reminder :

What is it?
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Post by CR10X 7/11/2020, 6:36 pm

Read the NRA and CMP Pistol rules all the way through.  (There have been substantial changes in the CMP rules as they copied the NRA rules to accommodate Match Pistol, etc.)

In general, you can do anything safely to try and complete your refire string of fire (or any string where you are not entitled to a refire, etc.) including manipulating the gun and changing (reloading) a magazine.  I should know, I  helped get the NRA rules clarified.  This was mostly because you are going to be charged with five shots anyway.   

BUT you cannot load more than 5 rounds to start the (any sustained fire) string (that's in the commands and rules) AND you still cannot fire more than five rounds without running afoul of the "more than the required number of shots" rule.  (No, you cannot fire 6 rounds to make up for only 4 on the first string if you didn't get a refire, tried to clear and didn't get all off, etc.)

So keep your wits about you or you'll lose any potential gain!  By the way though, according to the CMP Rules (Commands in Annex A - if they actually use them ) mandate that the shooter load AND fire 5 rounds for SLOW FIRE before changing the magazine to fire the remaining 5 rounds for the SLOW FIRE string! (You can't fire 4 and then reload and fire six for slow fire according to the CMP - NRA does not specify anything except "load" for slow fire strings.)

I'll have to check and see if CMP has made the same change when they updated their rules last time and copied the NRA Rules.  Yes, they did:

5.1.7 Malfunctions in Timed and Rapid-Fire Series
If a competitor has a malfunction during a timed or rapid-fire series and wishes to claim a malfunction, he/she must lower the pistol to the “Ready” position and
raise his/her non-shooting arm.
a) A Range Officer will examine the pistol to determine if the malfunction is allowable or non-allowable. Failures due to improper manual operation of
the pistol by the competitor are non-allowable malfunctions. If the competitor attempts to clear a malfunction, the malfunction is nonallowable. If the malfunction is allowable, the series may be refired;
b) Refires of allowable malfunctions in timed or rapid-fire series will be fired as a refire series. In the refire series, the competitor must load and fire five rounds. Any shots not fired in the refire series due to another
malfunction or failure to fire must be scored as misses (0);
c) The target with the original (incomplete) and refire series will be scored by counting the ten (10) lowest value shots, including any unfired shots on the refire series; or
d) If a competitor is not allowed to claim a refire (5.1.5) and/or wishes to clear a malfunction and continue firing within the time limit, he/she may do so; he/she may load additional rounds as necessary.



CR


Last edited by CR10X on 7/12/2020, 9:31 am; edited 4 times in total

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Post by -TT- 7/11/2020, 8:36 pm

It is an interesting question about firing more shots though. Since a refire is taking off the highest scoring shots anyway, what is the actual penalty for firing extras from your new mag, assuming you refire all 10's? Smile

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Post by zanemoseley 7/11/2020, 10:01 pm

With 5 rounds load.... If you shot 6 rounds intentionally you could be disqualified.

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Post by -TT- 7/12/2020, 5:50 am

From the *new* mag. Say, you load 5, clear after a jam, stick in a new full mag and shoot all 5 as 10s. So, you shot 7 or 8 shots in the refire. Yes, it's stupid but what rule disqualifies you, or gives you any extra penalty.

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Post by CR10X 7/12/2020, 6:22 am

This is way off the actual subject of what is a "Double Alibi", but OK here it is.  I just post stuff to help people that might do something out of ignorance or lack of other people to explain the rules and process. When I decided to run matches, I spent a lot of time talking to NRA referees and others to understand and properly interpret the rules to make sure I could do the job properly.  Other things I learned are that some people don't know any better and some people do know what the rules are but cheat anyway.  

NRA Rules 

On purpose - Potential Disqualification - 
9.25 Cross Fires and Excessive Hits - No competitor will deliberately fire on the wrong target nor fire more than the required
number of shots, including hits on some other competitor’s target and misses.

Accidental, etc: - 
14.10 Excessive Hits - (d) If a competitor, by mistake, fires more than the required number of shots, the required number of hits of lowest value will be scored. This shall not be considered a refire as outlined in Rule 9.14. 

Yes, I do watch shooters during strings after malfunctions, refires, etc.  A good RO / Match Director is ALWAYS trying to count shots....

9.29 Evasion of Rules - No competitor will evade nor attempt to evade nor be an accessory to the evasion of any of the conditions of
a match as prescribed in the tournament program or in these rules. Refusal of a competitor or tournament official to give testimony regarding facts known concerning violations or attempted violations of these rules will constitute being an accessory to the violation or
attempted violation. 

9.30 Penalties/Disqualification - The Official Referee, Jury, Supervisor or Match Director, upon proper presentation of evidence, may disqualify or order the expulsion of any competitor from the range for violations of rules or for other conduct considered discreditable or unsafe. In the event of a disagreement between Match Officials, the Official Referee or Jury shall prevail at the match with recourse only to the Protest Committee. 

9.31 Suspension - For violations of these rules deemed so to justify, any competitor may be suspended from competition and/
or expelled from the National Rifle Association upon presentation of evidence and conduct of a hearing as prescribed in the Bylaws.

CMP

3.4 Competitor Responsibilities
Every competitor who participates in a CMP competition must fulfill the following responsibilities. Failure to fulfill all of these responsibilities may result in disqualification in accordance with Rule 3.12.1).

3.4.2 Knowledge of the Rules
Competitors are responsible for knowing and complying with the CMP Competition Rules, the Match Program and any match director bulletins issued for the match.

3.12.1 Rule Violations
Competitors or team officials may be disciplined or disqualified from a match for any of the following acts of misconduct:

b) Failure to comply with CMP Competition Rules;

CR

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Post by Ed Hall 7/12/2020, 6:50 am

jwax wrote:Question Ed- If he "cleared the jam", doesn't that involve ejecting a cartridge?
That would put him 10 points down.
Which brings up a question- Is it legal to load 6 rounds, just in case?
The jam was trapped brass and didn't include cycling the slide, merely knocking the brass out of it, allowing the slide to close.  But, it did involve recognizing the jam, involving the off hand to clear it, regaining stance, recovering to point in process and continuing the shot plan - all while 10 seconds is counting down.

The command is, "For your ... string of Rapid Fire, with five rounds load!"  Loading six would be grounds for disqualification.

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Post by -TT- 7/12/2020, 8:57 am

CR10X wrote:This is way off the actual subject of what is a "Double Alibi", but OK here it is.

Kind of! But it's relevant, I think, to know the rules so you *don't* lose out.

On purpose - Potential Disqualification - 
9.25 Cross Fires and Excessive Hits - No competitor will deliberately fire on the wrong target nor fire more than the required
number of shots, including hits on some other competitor’s target and misses.

Accidental, etc: - 
14.10 Excessive Hits - (d) If a competitor, by mistake, fires more than the required number of shots, the required number of hits of lowest value will be scored. This shall not be considered a refire as outlined in Rule 9.14. 

Ok, "more than the required number of shots", got it. If "by mistake", low-ten. If "on purpose", DQ. Note to self - don't tempt fate!

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Post by CR10X 7/12/2020, 9:32 am

Yep, 
So keep your wits about you or you'll lose any potential gain! 
 And the shooter better know immediately what their equipment/ammo status is as well if they attempt to compete the string!  A "squib" load and bullet in the barrel and trying to complete the string is a recipe for disaster AND an expensive trip to the gunsmith (and maybe the ER).  This was one of the discussion points when the rule change was made. 
CR


Last edited by CR10X on 7/12/2020, 9:42 am; edited 2 times in total

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Post by chiz1180 7/12/2020, 9:39 am

CR10X wrote:Yep, 
So keep your wits about you or you'll lose any potential gain! 
 And you better know what your equipment status is as well.  A "squib" load and bullet in the barrel and trying to complete the string is a recipe for disaster AND and expensive trip to the gunsmith (and maybe the ER).
CR

I was told if I ever had an alibi to check the barrel, it only takes a few seconds. Best advice I have been given.
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Post by james r chapman 7/12/2020, 9:49 am

I had the issue of 11 rounds on paper TWICE.
Just inadvertently loaded 2 mags with 6 rounds .22
Embarrassing but easily scored
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Post by Ed Hall 7/12/2020, 10:34 am

chiz1180 wrote:
CR10X wrote:Yep, 
So keep your wits about you or you'll lose any potential gain! 
 And you better know what your equipment status is as well.  A "squib" load and bullet in the barrel and trying to complete the string is a recipe for disaster AND and expensive trip to the gunsmith (and maybe the ER).
CR

I was told if I ever had an alibi to check the barrel, it only takes a few seconds. Best advice I have been given.
If you ever extract an empty case from the chamber of a closed slide, stop and check the barrel, also.  I've seen barrels split from extracting empty cases and trying to continue in Slow Fire.  Before I learned this, I tried to duplicate it once, but fortunately the stuck bullet was far enough back it wouldn't let me fit the next round fully into the chamber.

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Post by Jack H 7/12/2020, 12:49 pm

I have wondered about too many shots made in a double alibi with additional shots taken.  I recall in early 2000s I questioned about something I did in a no-count gallery league match.  I had quickly inserted another mag in the 208s when it failed again in my refire string of rapid fire.  I got off more shots within the time limit.  I have no idea how many refire shots I made.  Probably more than five. (I think they were all in the black too  Very Happy )
I did the same thing one more time on another day with the 208s.  The actions switching mags and operating the slide were totally instinctive.  No time to count shots.  In the end, Larry said I had what was a hammer spring from a batch known to be bad.  No problems ever since.
On the old list, a firestorm followed my question and I believe it preceded the NRA writing that you may safely load more rounds
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