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Missing in action - one hole.

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Post by mikemyers on 8/12/2020, 3:27 pm

First topic message reminder :

I had a fun match with a friend this morning at 25 and 15 yards.  We were both shooting Model 52's.

What is the appropriate way to score this target?  I know I fired 10 rounds, and I may be a little rough still at calling my shots, but all ten rounds felt perfect.  Then I found this.   

I gave myself 90 points, so my friend beat me by one point, but what happens at a real match where two rounds go through one hole?

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Post by james r chapman on 8/12/2020, 7:20 pm

I'm bettin' if you challenged that target at Perry, your name better be Shue, Zins or Gregoire!
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Post by DA/SA on 8/12/2020, 7:30 pm

I had the same happen at the last match I shot (.22 900) and it was scored as nine shots. 30" x 30" cardboard backer and all shots in the ten ring...
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Post by mikemyers on 8/12/2020, 7:57 pm

Actually, I didn't 'challenge' it.  I accepted a score of 90.  I had no idea what the rule was, and it was just a "fun match".  I'm too stubborn to forget about it though.  Once again, I'm glad it happened, because I learned a lot more.  

I'll go to Publix tomorrow and ask for a 38-sized carrot...........       NOT.


DA/SA, did you have one of the measuring devices?  It doesn't sound fair to you.  The rules as posted earlier, don't make sense.  There should be some "wiggle room" for common sense.
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Post by DA/SA on 8/12/2020, 9:10 pm

No measuring devices.

It didn't really bother me, as I shoot more for my performance than my score. I called all ten shots, so I knew what they were.
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Post by Wobbley on 8/12/2020, 9:16 pm

Your double is the 3 o’clock X. From the back side the hole is ovoid by about .030 to .050 horizontally.
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Post by 10sandxs on 8/12/2020, 9:37 pm

Its almost like were shooting/scoring team matches here...

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Post by john bickar on 8/12/2020, 9:45 pm

10sandxs wrote:Its almost like were shooting/scoring team matches here...

I play a number of roles at any match:

- competitor
- scorer
- match director
- jury member

My level of scrutiny on that target would vary depending on which role I'm playing at any given time, and the level of match.

Now TEAM MATCHES are a completely different ballgame Laughing
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Post by mikemyers on 8/12/2020, 10:02 pm

Wobbley wrote:Your double is the 3 o’clock X. From the back side the hole is ovoid by about .030 to .050 horizontally.
I was going to write something cute, like "Columbo would be proud of you", but maybe you have a lot more experience at this, and just "know" these things.  I'm staring at the back side of the target, and now that I know what to look for, that hole does look slightly oval.  

Someone from the forum offered to send me an extra "overlay".  I'll take a photo of what the overlay and target looks like.
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Post by Jon Eulette on 8/12/2020, 10:09 pm

john bickar wrote:Now TEAM MATCHES are a completely different ballgame Laughing
EXACTLY!
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Post by shooter12 on 8/12/2020, 10:42 pm

I would score this target 100-6X.  I see the missing shot in the X-ring at 7:00.  The evidence I see is the hole is slightly elongated vertically.  The bullet radius on the bottom of the flap torn from the target above the hole does not match the sides of the hole below.

I think if this target were scored 90-5X in an important match the shooter would staple a $1 bill to the target and challenge the score if he could not talk the scorer into the 100-6X score.

An overlay would be helpful in this instance.

Mike, judging from the number of doubles found on your target are you sure you only fired 10 shots, not 11 or 12?

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Post by Wobbley on 8/12/2020, 11:07 pm

mikemyers wrote:
Wobbley wrote:Your double is the 3 o’clock X. From the back side the hole is ovoid by about .030 to .050 horizontally.
I was going to write something cute, like "Columbo would be proud of you", but maybe you have a lot more experience at this, and just "know" these things.  I'm staring at the back side of the target, and now that I know what to look for, that hole does look slightly oval.  

Someone from the forum offered to send me an extra "overlay".  I'll take a photo of what the overlay and target looks like.
Too many years of looking at ovoid holes in aircraft modification programs when drilled by hamfisted assembly techs.
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Post by mikemyers on 8/12/2020, 11:07 pm

shooter12 wrote:I would score this target 100-6X.  I see the missing shot in the X-ring at 7:00.  The evidence I see is the hole is slightly elongated vertically.  The bullet radius on the bottom of the flap torn from the target above the hole does not match the sides of the hole below.

I think if this target were scored 90-5X in an important match the shooter would staple a $1 bill to the target and challenge the score if he could not talk the scorer into the 100-6X score.

An overlay would be helpful in this instance.

Mike, judging from the number of doubles found on your target are you sure you only fired 10 shots, not 11 or 12?

Bruce Landon
Bruce, it was our last set of targets, for Rapid Fire.  I took 10 rounds out of the box, and put five rounds in each magazine.  We both then followed the "instructions" on the Bullseye recording for rapid fire.  I know I'm not supposed to, but I was counting shots, to see if I could stay on a reasonable pace.  Five rounds, then we stopped.  I got ready, and on the second playing of the recording shot the last five rounds.  The Model 52, with a small dot sight, is a dream to shoot.  We were both shooting two-handed, as that's the rules for most people at our club, and that's how Tony shoots.  Again, it's "only" 15 yards.  (For 22 and 45 I shoot one handed now.  For all my other guns, I decide when I get to the range how I want to shoot.  (To be fair to Tony, he has been doing bullseye for a lifetime, and he has physical problems that don't allow him to shoot one handed any more.)  

Thank you for the compliment!!!!   The idea of deliberately shooting doubles - I wish I had that capability, but no way!!!  

This discussion has been as much fun as our "fun match".   bounce
Tomorrow I rejoin the "real world".  Dave wants me shooting at 50 yards for all my slow-fire from now on.
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Post by Pbmoser1954 on 8/13/2020, 5:04 am

Here you go Mike

https://www.google.com/shopping/product/1?q=bullseye+target+overlays+for+scoring&client=safari&hl=en-us&biw=414&bih=719&tbs=vw:l,ss:44&prds=num:1,of:1,epd:5545829756644958157,prmr:1,pid:5545829756644958157,cs:1
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Post by CR10X on 8/13/2020, 6:43 am

Actually, these are more useful since they include the scoring ring "arcs" to recreate any missing portion of the inner scoring rings.  There also used to a requirement for the NRA licensed notice to be printed on them, but I'm not sure anymore. (The ones I use at Perry do have the NRA logo / license.)

http://www.champchoice.com/store/Main.aspx?p=ItemDetailOptions&item=SO10

They are used singly to check for touching scoring rings (especially useful for FMJ, JHP & .22 holes - most times the hole is smaller than the bullet diameter due to the flexing of the target) or looking for doubles and in pairs to score when you have that big gaping hole that crosses a scoring ring to score. 

You use one overlay to recreate the missing portion of the scoring ring (x,10,9 & 8 ) and then use the other overlay to find the location of shots that are outside, inside or touching the recreated ring. (That's why you need the pair.)

You will need when scoring Jon Shue, Bickar, etc.  Sometimes they will leak a shot or 2 out of the X ring during rapid fire.....

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Post by chiz1180 on 8/13/2020, 7:43 am

A few other notes on scoring worth mentioning. 

-Score hard but fair. The person you are scoring now may end up scoring you at a later date. 
-The person who you are scoring should not tell you how to score their target. 
-Don't be flustered if the person you are scoring calls for a plug, a plug properly used help minimize scoring bias for all on the line
-Write the shot values on the score card neatly
-double check your math

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Post by James Hensler on 8/13/2020, 9:00 am

I need you guys to score my targets because I have never been this lucky
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Post by mikemyers on 8/13/2020, 10:38 am

James, I'm the last person you'd want to have me score your targets.  I know there's an "easy way", but I still do it with a calculator on my phone.  confused
Others look at a target, and in under a minute they know the score.  

What I was taught was to add up how many holes in the X, 10, 9, 8, etc. rings, then multiply and get the total for each ring, then add it all up on my phone.
You guys will laugh at this, but when I try it the "easy" way, my mind gets confusabobbled.

Oh well, I might as well enter my three targets in this week's "match report" thread.
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Post by CrankyThunder on 8/13/2020, 10:51 am

Nother good trick............

Always ask for a plug on the top half of the target, gravity pulls it down into the higher scoring ring.  

Conversely, be careful asking for a plug on the bottom half.
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Post by Oleg G on 8/13/2020, 11:05 am

Mike,

I thought that this thread was about finding a double in your target, not about the scoring methodology...

Since you brought it up, here is an explanation of the "easy way":

You start with the premise that shooting 10 shots into the 10 ring or better (some Xs) will result in a perfect score of 100.
Any shots outside the 10 ring will decrease the score from 100.
One shot in the 9 ring will decrease the score by 1
One shot in the 8 ring will decrease the score by 2
Etc.

Therefore, you calculate the score by subtracting the "missed opportunities" from the perfect score of 100.

Let me illustrate. Look at the target below. Here is how you score it:

First, you count the number of shots on the target to assure yourself that there are 10 shots.
Next, you write down on the score card the value of each shot from highest to lowest:

X, X, 10, 10, 10, 10, 9, 9, 9, 9.
In your head, you count: 
100 minus 1, to account for the first 9 = 99
99 minus 1, for the second 9 = 98
98 minus 1, for the third 9 = 97
97 minus 1, for the last 9 = 96. 
There are two Xs written down. Therefore, the score is: 96-2X.

I the lowest shot was an 8, your last calculation would have been:
97 minus 2, to account for the 8 = 95.

With practice, you can do this in seconds and without a calculator.



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Post by james r chapman on 8/13/2020, 11:17 am

I would prefer plugging on a horizontal surface for that reason.
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Post by SonOfAGun on 8/13/2020, 11:45 am

As a new competitor (only three events prior to pandemic interruption) I found the process of scoring to be almost more intimidating than the shooting. The shooting is up to me, and I'm comfortable with my level of ability. I'm pretty much ok with letting myself do what I can without getting flustered. But the responsibility of scoring someone else's results kind of got to me. Relying on myself to shoot is one thing, but another shooter relying on me, that's something else. It's the same feelings I have when I'm not confident in my skills yet-- that I'm going too slowly, or am missing something obvious, or my lack of experience is causing a problem for some otherwise innocent competitor. I look forward to getting more comfortable with that part.

I understand the "counting the missed points" technique, and I practice using it. But I have also relied on a calculator at times.

I'm not sure when or how I found it, but this online calculator counts the shots, knows that an X = ten points, tracks the X count, and accumulates a number of targets into an aggregate score. Much easier than a standard calculator. But still not as cool as doing it in your head in 5 seconds.

http://www.targettally.com
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Post by james r chapman on 8/13/2020, 12:38 pm

And THEN the CMP comes along and tells you “no x’s!” 10 in the box and carefully fill in the appropriate oval below the scoring box. 🤭
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Post by mikemyers on 8/13/2020, 1:16 pm

Oleg G wrote:....Therefore, you calculate the score by subtracting the "missed opportunities" from the perfect score of 100.
Let me illustrate. Look at the target below. Here is how you score it:

First, you count the number of shots on the target to assure yourself that there are 10 shots.
Next, you write down on the score card the value of each shot from highest to lowest:

X, X, 10, 10, 10, 10, 9, 9, 9, 9.
In your head, you count: 
100 minus 1, to account for the first 9 = 99
99 minus 1, for the second 9 = 98
98 minus 1, for the third 9 = 97
97 minus 1, for the last 9 = 96. 
There are two Xs written down. Therefore, the score is: 96-2X.

I the lowest shot was an 8, your last calculation would have been:
97 minus 2, to account for the 8 = 95.

With practice, you can do this in seconds and without a calculator.
Yep, that's what the thread was about, but I can see now how to do it right.
I used to write down all the holes on the score card.
Until now, I've been adding up all those numbers to get a total.
You're suggesting I add up the difference between them and the maximum, a 10, and then just subtract that sum from 100.
I can see where I no longer need my calculator.  Thanks!
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Post by john bickar on 8/13/2020, 4:55 pm

james r chapman wrote:I would prefer plugging on a horizontal surface for that reason.
10m rifle/pistol does exactly that.
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Post by john bickar on 8/13/2020, 5:01 pm

SonOfAGun wrote:As a new competitor (only three events prior to pandemic interruption) I found the process of scoring to be almost more intimidating than the shooting. The shooting is up to me, and I'm comfortable with my level of ability. I'm pretty much ok with letting myself do what I can without getting flustered. But the responsibility of scoring someone else's results kind of got to me. Relying on myself to shoot is one thing, but another shooter relying on me, that's something else. It's the same feelings I have when I'm not confident in my skills yet-- that I'm going too slowly, or am missing something obvious, or my lack of experience is causing a problem for some otherwise innocent competitor. I look forward to getting more comfortable with that part.

I understand the "counting the missed points" technique, and I practice using it. But I have also relied on a calculator at times.

I'm not sure when or how I found it, but this online calculator counts the shots, knows that an X = ten points, tracks the X count, and accumulates a number of targets into an aggregate score. Much easier than a standard calculator. But still not as cool as doing it in your head in 5 seconds.

http://www.targettally.com

Try highpower rifle if you want to get really freaked out. You're a shooter, scorer, range volunteer, and range official all in the same match. Oh, and you get no training.
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