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Old Springfield Armory 1911 A1 Wad Gun + Nelson Kit

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Old Springfield Armory 1911 A1 Wad Gun +  Nelson Kit  Empty Old Springfield Armory 1911 A1 Wad Gun + Nelson Kit

Post by mikemyers on Fri Aug 28, 2020 5:31 pm

I bought my Nelson kit a year or so ago, with the idea that shooting both 45 and 22 from the "same gun - grip, trigger, and so on) would help me improve my shooting with both.  The Nelson turned out to have a defect in the chamber, and after none of the "fixes" worked, Larry suggested I return it, and if they couldn't get it to work, they would replace it.  Long story, but it was "something" in the chamber making the chamber too tight, and they replaced it.  So, as of this writing I've got a brand new Nelson kit still sitting in the box.

I've got two 45's for Bullseye, an older Springfield 1911 made in Brazil, and a Caspian, both turned into bullseye guns by Dave Salyer.  Of the two, I prefer the Springfield.  Long ago, having read about issues with mounting a Nelson on a Springfield, there were concerns about the position of the magazine in the frame, and as I recall, one option was to install a special magazine release which fixed things.  Not being sure what to do, I got to try the Nelson on both the Caspian, and on my Baer.  (It works fine on both the Caspian and the Baer, which leads to other options I'm not currently considering.)

Fast forward to today.  If my memory is correct, I can insert one of the plastic magazines into the Springfield, without making any changes yet to the Springfield, and I can then tell what if anything needs to be changed.  I think I remember that I need to only buy a different magazine release.

My questions include:

  • a) Is what I just wrote correct?
  • b) How can I tell if the magazine is or isn't located as it should be, and
  • c) What parts should I buy to make things work?


There is no hurry - I will be back to shooting 45 in the Springfield once I put my Baer away for a while, and I am enjoying my High Standard X-Series for 22.  

My information on this mostly comes from "https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tIpPMFm5ubM" - fast forward to 14 minutes into the video.
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Post by JKR on Fri Aug 28, 2020 5:55 pm

Mike,
A high mag release was often the cure for a Marvel but is not needed for a Nelson. Put the conversion on the frame and lock the slide back. Insert the magazine while looking at the ejector. When the mag is locked in it shouldn’t be pushing the ejector up. If it is, the slide will probably not close.  Unless your Springfield has had a high mag catch installed, the conversion should work.
If your Springfield has the lock on the mainspring housing and the original mainspring, that will most likely need to be changed. Conversions run best on an 18 to 20 lb. mainspring. I don’t think older guns like yours had this ILS system but I’m not positive. 
Put it on, take it to the range and see if it works.
Good luck Mike.
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Post by mikemyers on Fri Aug 28, 2020 5:58 pm

Wow, you're fast - you're replaying before the (virtual) ink even dried!

Nope, no lock on mainspring housing.

I'll try what you suggested this evening.
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Post by kjanracing on Fri Aug 28, 2020 9:01 pm

Mine worked great on my stock RO. The Nelson came with 2 recoil springs, one was lighter for the heavier ILS main spring.
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Post by 301bruce on Sun Aug 30, 2020 8:19 am

My Nelson is mounted on my 70 series Gold Cup frame. The Nelson magazines did push the ejector up until I trimmed the notch on the magazines so they sit lower in the frame. I also have several GSG mags that all work without modification.

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Post by mpolans on Sun Aug 30, 2020 12:53 pm

301bruce wrote:My Nelson is mounted on my 70 series Gold Cup frame. The Nelson magazines did push the ejector up until I trimmed the notch on the magazines so they sit lower in the frame. I also have several GSG mags that all work without modification.
Before folks start doing this, recommend modifying the mag release rather than notches in the magazine.  Now the mags may only work on that gun, hurting resale value of the kit and mags if you ever decide to sell it.  Better to modify the cheaper part like a $25 mag release, rather than several magazines at $25/each that will now possibly require a special mag release at $25 (or more).

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Post by jonathan.lane on Mon Aug 31, 2020 1:11 am

I agree.  My Nelson conversion worked on one gun, but pushed the extractor up on another.  The slide dragged quite a bit and the second gun would malfunction.  I bought a spare magazine release and trimmed the shelf a little with a file until the conversion/magazines functioned well.  With the modified mag release, the conversion now works well on all my 1911s.


Last edited by jonathan.lane on Mon Aug 31, 2020 1:12 am; edited 1 time in total (Reason for editing : grammar correction)

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Post by mikemyers on Mon Aug 31, 2020 7:22 am

jonathan.lane wrote:I agree.  My Nelson conversion worked on one gun, but pushed the extractor up on another.  The slide dragged quite a bit and the second gun would malfunction.  I bought a spare magazine release and trimmed the shelf a little with a file until the conversion/magazines functioned well.  With the modified mag release, the conversion now works well on all my 1911s.
Do you have any before and after photos of the magazine release?  I can't visualize what is being done to it.
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Post by DA/SA on Mon Aug 31, 2020 7:33 am

The shelf that engages the notch in the magazine is being filed down to allow the magazine to engage at a lower point.
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Post by mikemyers on Mon Aug 31, 2020 7:59 am

So, you're saying if I look into my gun, the surface that touches the magazine is what you're calling "the shelf"?

Will do so this afternoon.

If I buy a new magazine disconnect to modify, does it also need to be "fitted" to the gun?

Old Springfield Armory 1911 A1 Wad Gun +  Nelson Kit  Magrel01
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Post by DA/SA on Mon Aug 31, 2020 8:10 am

Why not just shoot it as it is and see how it works before you start modifying things?
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Post by TonyH on Mon Aug 31, 2020 8:15 am

mikemyers wrote:
jonathan.lane wrote:I agree.  My Nelson conversion worked on one gun, but pushed the extractor up on another.  The slide dragged quite a bit and the second gun would malfunction.  I bought a spare magazine release and trimmed the shelf a little with a file until the conversion/magazines functioned well.  With the modified mag release, the conversion now works well on all my 1911s.
Do you have any before and after photos of the magazine release?  I can't visualize what is being done to it.
Old Springfield Armory 1911 A1 Wad Gun +  Nelson Kit  Sp022610
The red arrow points to the shelf that jonathan.lane refers to above. Like he says, buy a spare (do not alter magazines) and lower that shelf till the mag lip barely touches the bottom of the ejector on the Nelson. Obviously, this only applies if the magazine pushes up on the ejector enough that the slide drags and retards movement causing return to battery issues. I had to do that on my SRO for the Nelson, but luckily the lowered mag release shelf causes no issues when converted back to 45 ACP with normal magazines, so I don't have switch the release out with an unaltered one. Hope the pic helps....
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Post by TonyH on Mon Aug 31, 2020 8:16 am

DA/SA wrote:Why not just shoot it as it is and see how it works before you start modifying things?
+1.... Laughing. Obviously...Maybe not?
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Post by mikemyers on Mon Aug 31, 2020 1:59 pm

DA/SA wrote:Why not just shoot it as it is and see how it works before you start modifying things?
Sorry, I don't do things that way.  

I would want to check out everything ahead of time, and do a good bit of dry-firing, before I would go to the range and shoot.  
It's just the way I do things.  In this case, I haven't even taken the Nelson out of the box yet.  That will happen later this week.
I would never shoot it unless/until I thought it was working properly.
Now that I think I understand what's going on with the magazine disconnect, I would want to know it's functioning properly.

Maybe I'm just being silly that way, but it's how I've learned to do anything with a gun.
Extreme exaggeration:  Better to verify that a barrel is clear, before shooting.


I think I know what you all mean (which was NOT true a few days ago).  Maybe I'll take things apart tomorrow, just to check this out.
Thanks for all the advice.  The odds are that the kit will drop onto the gun, and I'll be able to shoot with it on Wednesday.
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Post by TonyH on Mon Aug 31, 2020 3:40 pm

mikemyers wrote:
DA/SA wrote:Why not just shoot it as it is and see how it works before you start modifying things?
Sorry, I don't do things that way.  

I would want to check out everything ahead of time, and do a good bit of dry-firing, before I would go to the range and shoot.  
It's just the way I do things.  In this case, I haven't even taken the Nelson out of the box yet.  That will happen later this week.
I would never shoot it unless/until I thought it was working properly.
Now that I think I understand what's going on with the magazine disconnect, I would want to know it's functioning properly.

Maybe I'm just being silly that way, but it's how I've learned to do anything with a gun.
Extreme exaggeration:  Better to verify that a barrel is clear, before shooting.


I think I know what you all mean (which was NOT true a few days ago).  Maybe I'll take things apart tomorrow, just to check this out.
Thanks for all the advice.  The odds are that the kit will drop onto the gun, and I'll be able to shoot with it on Wednesday.
You will not actually know if it actually works, or works well, till you fire it repeatedly with varied ammunition.....
I have pretty simplistic thinking....assemble the darn thing, run the slide a manually a few times just to check for basic functionality, wipe the oil out of the new barrel and then go shoot it and check for reliability. I don't go into deep analysis and ponder all the "what ifs" unless they actually occur and need resolve....to each how own, I suppose. BTW, its not a magazine disconnect...it's simply a magazine catch.
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Post by mikemyers on Tue Sep 01, 2020 12:56 pm

Magazine CATCH.  I'm all too often getting my mords wixed up.  Sorry.  Need to put brain in gear, before putting fingers in motion.

About a year ago, I had problems getting the Nelson set up.  Time to delete that from my brain.  This time around everything is going fine.

I installed the Nelson on my Springfield this morning.  As far as I can tell, it's all working fine.  I need to mount a sight, then try it out at the range tomorrow. 

I guess I over complicate everything, maybe a bad habit from too many years of engineering, where it was important to figure out all the "what if's" ahead of time.
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Post by james r chapman on Tue Sep 01, 2020 2:57 pm

Engineers don’t waste time on ‘what if’s’
Maintenance personnel do.
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Post by CR10X on Tue Sep 01, 2020 6:03 pm

People that try fixing a problem before there is a problem or an indication of a problem ARE the primary cause of most avoidable problems that should never have become a problem in the first place.

In other words, don't mess with anything unless you are absolutely, positively sure you have a good reason to do so AND you're pretty sure you're not going to make the situation worse.
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Post by dronning on Tue Sep 01, 2020 7:34 pm

CR10X wrote:People that try fixing a problem before there is a problem or an indication of a problem ARE the primary cause of most avoidable problems that should never have become a problem in the first place.

In other words, don't mess with anything unless you are absolutely, positively sure you have a good reason to do so AND you're pretty sure you're not going to make the situation worse.
CR
+1 and they most likely don't understand the operation/relationship of what they are "fixing".  Kind of like mechanics that replace parts until the car runs but then the same problem shows up weeks later.
- Dave
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Post by jjfitch on Wed Sep 02, 2020 12:40 am

What is considered an "old" S/A 1911A1?

I have a S/A from the mid 80's. It's an NM serial number with the two piece barrel. It have had some gun Smith upgrades. My Nelson is a current model and works flawlessly on that receiver improving my Gallery B/E scores by about 15%!


Nelson/ Fu
sion
Old Springfield Armory 1911 A1 Wad Gun +  Nelson Kit  20180810
Smiles,
Old Springfield Armory 1911 A1 Wad Gun +  Nelson Kit  20180810[url=https://servimg.com/view/20256587/2]Old Springfield Armory 1911 A1 Wad Gun +  Nelson Kit  20180710[/url]
This is the Nelson on the S/A receiver!
The trigger breaks at 3.5#'s!


Last edited by jjfitch on Wed Sep 02, 2020 8:55 pm; edited 2 times in total
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Post by mikemyers on Wed Sep 02, 2020 3:08 am

jjfitch wrote:What is considered an "old" S/A 1911A1?......
https://forums.1911forum.com/showthread.php?t=241237
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Post by Jon Eulette on Wed Sep 02, 2020 3:27 am

jjfitch wrote:It's an NM serial number with the two piece barrel. 
Could never get one of those two piece barrels to group at 50 yards.
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Post by mikemyers on Wed Sep 02, 2020 5:14 pm

Got to the range this morning, and started to sight in the Nelson.  The problem was that half the time, the hammer apparently started to "follow" the slide when the slide was returning, so this is where the hammer ended up:

Old Springfield Armory 1911 A1 Wad Gun +  Nelson Kit  Img_3120

I spoke to Larry and Kevin, and they said the hammer was "following".  First time I've heard that term.  Contributing factors might be the Sear Spring (one of the three springs might need re-adjustment), "harmonics" which are causing the hammer hooks to come undone, and maybe the main spring being too weak.

My plan for tomorrow is to move the Nelson kit to one of my other 45's (Baer or Caspian), put the 45 slide parts back on the Springfield, and find out what works and what doesn't - Springfield set up for 45, and either Baer or Caspian set up with the Nelson for 22.


To make the weight of the Springfield/Nelson the same as the weight of the Springfield set up for 45, I mounted an Aimpoint 9000 SC to the Nelson.  I thought this might have something to do with it, but Larry and Kevin tell me the weight could not cause the "following".  The weight is now the same, regardless of whether it's configured for 22 or 45.

Any other tests I could do tomorrow to help track this down, or suggestions as to what might fix it?

Old Springfield Armory 1911 A1 Wad Gun +  Nelson Kit  Img_3121
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Post by james r chapman on Wed Sep 02, 2020 5:50 pm

Have you tweaked your sear/hammer lately.
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Post by mikemyers on Wed Sep 02, 2020 5:53 pm

Jim, I wouldn't know how - that's way over my comfort level.

I've never had this gun apart other than for cleaning.


......added later - I wouldn't mind working on it, if I felt it was safe.
Plan B is to send it all back to Dave, who can also "freshen it up" as a wad gun.
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