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Precision Shooting Revolver Matches

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Post by mikemyers 9/28/2020, 7:20 pm

Curious - do the Precision Shooting Revolver competitions include the same format as pistols, Slow Fire, Timed Fire, and Rapid Fire?

If so, are the announcements, etc., the same as for Pistol?

When we normally hear "With 5 rounds, load", does that mean that all competitors have speed loaders, so they can do this quickly, or are they allowed to load the rounds into the cylinder, just as they would a magazine, but not close the cylinder until the above instruction is given?

Are there classes for 22, 38/357, 44?

I assume Magnum loads are not allowed.

(I'm entering this here because a friend and I were discussing it to day at the range.  Just curious, I'm not looking for a match to enter.  I tried using Google Search, and got nowhere.)
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Post by chiz1180 9/28/2020, 8:00 pm

For Distinguished Revolver matches, it basically is a national match course shot with a 38 (or 357). Since everyone is shooting a revolver in this match a bit more time is typically give after the load command.

If you shoot a revolver(s) in a 2700, I personally individually load the cylinder after the command to load has been given (Occasionally have to say "Not Ready" depending on who is calling the line), though some use speedloaders or moon clips.

I do not know of anyone shooting 44's but I have seen smith 625s on the line a few times. Classes for different calibers of revolver do not exist in either the current CMP or NRA rules. You could shoot magnum loads in a 2700 but why?

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Post by cdrt 9/28/2020, 8:33 pm

Per the rules, no rounds are placed in the cylinder until the command to load is given.  I always give competitors more time to load when they are using a revolver.  It's not a horse race, no need to rush anyone.
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Post by mikemyers 9/28/2020, 9:24 pm

That all makes sense - so people can just yell out "not ready" if they need more time, unless the person running the match just gives more time knowing it will be helpful.  (I tried this morning in our "fun match", using my Python.  The other fellow was using a Model 52.  There wasn't enough time to load five rounds.  If I do this any more, I'll use my Model 17.)

If the match is for "Distinguished Revolver", then a 38 revolver is likely to be used.  Is there also a revolver class for 22?

Final question - how does "rapid fire" fit in with revolver matches, or is is just skipped?
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Post by chiz1180 9/28/2020, 9:36 pm

When the 'Is the line ready?' command if you need a bit more time yes saying 'not ready' is acceptable. If I am shooting revolver I typically let the person calling the line know and ask for a bit more time in advance. 

Distinguished Revolver is an NRA sanctioned match with very specific rules (arguably not the clearest though) NRA rule book 3.3 describes the equipment requirements. no specific class for a 22 revolver, some people do shoot all revolver 3-gun matches.

Rapid fire is no different from the normal course of fire, 5 shots in 10 seconds. Some shoot it single action others double, just takes a bit of practice. Personally I shoot Slow fire single action and timed and rapid double.

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Post by james r chapman 9/29/2020, 4:59 am

Safariland Python speedloaders and a loading block.
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Post by mikemyers 9/29/2020, 6:54 am

chiz1180 wrote:........Rapid fire is no different from the normal course of fire, 5 shots in 10 seconds. Some shoot it single action others double, just takes a bit of practice........
Methinks that is a huge understatement!!!   :-)

Currently, I don't have that much to do, and have oodles of free time.  I'm re-reading "Target Shooting Today", and I tried to fully understand this:
https://gundigest.com/more/how-to/firearm-training/double-action-revolver-secret-to-the-trigger
In yesterday's practice match, I did try rapid fire, and the holes mostly appeared on the other targets on my backing board!

I figured just because I couldn't do it, that doesn't mean it can't be done, with enough practice.
Strangely, I found that if I put my hand in just the right place on the Python, and pull the trigger quickly (goes against everything I have learned), the front sight wobbles less and less, and eventually ends up right where it should be.  So, maybe there is hope.

I should add that I don't physically have enough strength to do the above single handed.  I shoot my Model 17 better one handed than two handed, but the Python has a very different balance.

If anyone ever asks me why I bother with this, it's because the first gun I bought was a revolver, just like Clint Eastwood's, and in ways I find it difficult to describe, it is very enjoyable and satisfying to shoot revolvers.  Everything seems "back to the basics".  That, and all my movie heroes used revolvers when I was growing up.    :-)
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Post by chopper 9/29/2020, 11:12 am

Mike, I like shooting revolvers now and then too. If I carry I prefer the 38 snub with an ammo clip. But shooting them for precision 22 or 38, I don't have a 45 yet, they are fun. I don't know anyone who made master or high master shooting exclusively revolvers with them yet. My friend Jim shoots revolvers only and made Expert a few years ago. He's strong follower of Ed McGivern and shoots single action slow and double action timed and rapid.
 Personally I shoot single action on everything S,T,and R. What ever you do plan to choose, dry fire a lot and you'll get it down. I took the single action route because it's a quicker way for ME to learn, I do shoot double action but only for combat.
 Nice thing about revolvers is that dry firing is the best way to improve on rapid fire. When you think how accurate firing SF using single action, which most shooters do, then timed or rapid is just 4 more of those. After all, we all had to learn to do it with semi auto pistols.
 I'm going down and practice a little with the RO, think I'll take the 17 with me and have some fun shooting some of the old 22s I don't use anymore.
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Post by CR10X 9/29/2020, 11:32 am

People have made Master and High Master with revolvers.  And I have always been IMPRESSED by that! 

I always shot TF / RF better using single action and there's plenty of time to do it right and never enough time if you don't. (DR#9)

If you believe it can be done, it can be done.

If you don't think it can be done, then you may not be thinking the right way in order to get it done.

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Post by Oleg G 9/29/2020, 12:03 pm

Mike,

You said that you are "re-reading "Target Shooting Today..."

In the book Target Shooting Today, Captain Weston is very emphatic about his preference for single action shooting and his strong opinion that double-action shooting does not result in any appreciable speed increase, and is very detrimental to accuracy. In his view, this is applicable to both Slow Fire and Sustained Fire (Timed and Rapid) shooting. - See Chapter 2 in the book.

This is not to detract from a fact that a number of shooters were successful with shooting revolvers in double-action but single action just seems so much easier Smile

If you want to see exactly how to shoot the revolver single action in sustained fire, watch the video below from 0:25 to 0:35 where one of the officers does just that and you can see exactly how he does it. (I posted this video before, so apologies).

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Post by mikemyers 9/29/2020, 12:52 pm

chopper wrote:...... Personally I shoot single action on everything S,T,and R. ......dry fire a lot and you'll get it down........Nice thing about revolvers is that dry firing is the best way to improve on rapid fire. When you think how accurate firing SF using single action, which most shooters do, then timed or rapid is just 4 more of those.......

............think I'll take the 17 with me and have some fun shooting some of the old 22s I don't use anymore.
You're giving me two simultaneous thoughts.
#1 - Almost always when I get to the range, the best description is me trying to do what I've been training how to do in dry-fire at home.  Maybe the single word that describes it best is "serious".  This always seems to be true if I bring one of my Bullseye Guns.

#2 - Everything feels different if I take a different type of gun with me, maybe one of my revolvers, maybe my PPK/S, and maybe my black powder gun.  It's relaxing, fun, and while I'd like to shoot well, I'm mostly just enjoying the shooting - like what you said in your last sentence above.

Your sentence that I changed to bold face is something I hadn't considered - instead of thinking how I can get off the required number of shots in the allowed time, maybe I will just work on getting off ONE shot, gradually speeding things up.   Even this would be "fun shooting".

If I put on my "serious cap", and shoot the way I will when my club starts up our matches again, I will almost certainly follow the advice I've been given, pick one gun (either my High Standard or my Nelson) and try to do my best.


Anyway, back to this thread.  I'm enjoying shooting my revolvers again, and I guess I've got a lot to learn!
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Post by mikemyers 9/29/2020, 1:01 pm

CR10X wrote:..........I always shot TF / RF better using single action and there's plenty of time to do it right and never enough time if you don't. (DR#9).......
Cecil, I now accept that it can be done, but like anything else that's new, I need to learn what to do, and practice in dry-fire.  
I thought I was going to read here that revolver shooters use double-action trigger in competition - that adds a full, new, learning curve.
Single action is something that Ive used my whole life - and most of what I've learned from shooting pistols seems to apply to revolvers as well.

As far as my own plan, I want to get as good as I can in Slow Fire before I try to get faster.  
From what I've read, a Model 17 shot properly should allow a person to get 100's most of the time.
I'm not there yet, obviously.     :-)

I don't think I'll ever get "there", as my definition of "there" gets tighter the more I learn and the more I apply what I learn.
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Post by mikemyers 9/29/2020, 1:27 pm

Oleg G wrote:...........If you want to see exactly how to shoot the revolver single action in sustained fire, watch the video below from 0:25 to 0:35 where one of the officers does just that and you can see exactly how he does it..........
Oleg, thanks for posting this again (and please post it as often as you think would be helpful!!).  I probably played it a dozen times, but never really could tell what he was doing.  Then I set the YouTube playback speed to 1/4, and things became more obvious.  Yes, from watching that, I not only accept that it CAN be done, but that with practice, I can learn to do it too.  If the initial shot goes off just as the buzzer starts to sound, that gives all the rest of the time for "only" four more shots.  

I'll stuff my Model 17 with empty cases, or snap caps, and see how well I can do this, with no time limit.  For reasons I don't understand, the Model 17 feels better when I only shoot one handed.  Once I can do it well, slowly, I can think about speeding up.  Thanks again for posting.


I''m curious what you think about this article:
https://gundigest.com/more/how-to/firearm-training/double-action-revolver-secret-to-the-trigger

Anyone know of any videos, or websites, that show revolver competition at Precision Shooting matches?
I'll try once again to see what I can find on YouTube.....
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Post by Oleg G 9/29/2020, 1:57 pm

Mike,

The article that you linked does not address precision shooting. The author of the article says: "If you’re going to shoot very small groups in double-action, you will have to learn to stage." What he means by that is that you will have to learn to take up most of the trigger weight first and then align your sights and complete the remaining trigger press. This basically amounts to emulating single-action shooting but without thumb-cocking the revolver. Learning to "stage" the trigger will require a great deal of training - it will be a much longer process than learning to move the thumb to re-cock the revolver.

To quote Paul Weston "Rapidity of fire and accuracy when firing double action can only be obtained after a great deal of practice. The same rapidity of fire and much greater accuracy can be attained by firing single action, and with much less practice. The ability to fire a revolver improves in direct ratio to the amount of time spent in practice. The amount of time required to learn to shoot single action is but a small percentage of the amount of time necessary to learn double action fire. Since the time available is usually limited, it is advisable to confine it to single action fire."

Your approach is absolutely fine: first learn to execute the motions correctly, albeit slowly, and then work on getting faster.

As an example: main focus of my current training is Rapid Fire (with a .22 semi-automatic pistol). My mantra is - "no bad shots." By this I mean that in training I will execute each rapid fire shot exactly in accordance with my shot process, not allowing any deviations. This approach allows me to shoot consistent scores of 96-100 in rapid fire. However, this means that sometimes, I still take 11-12 secs to finish the rapid fire string. I don't allow this to phase me - with each training session, the number of 10-secs or less strings increases and the number of 10+ secs strings decreases, without detrimentally affecting the score. Once I reach a goal of 96+ in 10 secs, I will raise the goal to 98+ and will start the process over again. I follow the same approach with the .45, although the score goals are still lower than the .22.
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Post by mikemyers 9/29/2020, 2:30 pm

Oleg, the last time I tested Rapid Fire on my Model 17, I never got a decent grip on the gun, so everything got messed up.  The standard grips and my hand just didn't "mesh" nicely.  Cecil was totally right, I now know I "CAN" do it, and what you wrote just now reinforces what I just tried.  With my new Nill grips on my Model 17, the gun feels "attached" to my hand.  I loaded up with Tipton Snap Caps, and tried to emulate the video, shooting at the same pace the officer did.  Amazing, everything worked, and I finished with time to spare.  I think the explanation might be because of the way the Model 17 is balanced.  Taking a shot, then manipulating the hammer like in the video was relatively easy.  

I tried this several times, with the Bullseye Range Commands playing on my phone, taking one shot exactly when the buzzer went off (another piece of advice from Cecil), and the remaining time was more than enough to get in four accurate single-action dry-fire shots.  (I tried, but I can't do this yet with the Python.)

This maybe belongs in a different forum now, but shooting the 17 with the original grips didn't work for me.  Shooting the Python more quickly in single-action didn't work, because it took me a long time to get the gun aimed correctly and "locked in" for each shot.  

I accept what you wrote about the article I posted - at the time, that was the best thing I could find, but yeah, it's not the way to go for Bullseye.  Thanks - I was about to waste a lot of time and ammunition uselessly.

I'm puzzled as to why the Model 17 with Nill grips is so easy for me both to aim, and to hold steady.  I figure it's definitely a good gun to learn with, and to try to get my own ability closer to what the gun is capable of.  

Since the Model 17 is rimfire, I was going to use used cases, but they didn't fit nicely into the cylinder.  The Tipton snap caps not only fit perfectly, they don't get distorted like the aluminum dummy rounds I used to use.  They're also very inexpensive on Amazon.

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Post by TonyH 9/29/2020, 3:04 pm

Since the Model 17 is rimfire, I was going to use used cases, but they didn't fit nicely into the cylinder.  The Tipton snap caps not only fit perfectly, they don't get distorted like the aluminum dummy rounds I used to use.  They're also very inexpensive on Amazon.
Mike,
Take a look at this thread. I have been using these for years with a 22 RF instead of expensive snap caps, work great
https://www.bullseyeforum.net/t13663-cheap-22-snap-caps-that-work?highlight=snap+caps
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Post by mikemyers 9/29/2020, 4:35 pm

I already bought two packs (50) of the Tipton, $8 or so each.
If they work the same, the ones you're showing will save a little $$.
https://www.amazon.com/Tipton-Rimfire-Snap-486-758-Pack/dp/B0048KGUY8/ref=sr_1_1…


For whatever it's worth, we're going to have our "fun match" at 9am tomorrow.  My friend will use his Volquartsen or High Standard, and I'll do my best with the revolver.  For better or worse, I'll post those photos in the on-line match thread.

Are all the revolver rules posted somewhere online, or do I need to order them?
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Post by james r chapman 9/29/2020, 6:25 pm

NRA website
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Post by mikemyers 9/29/2020, 6:41 pm

Thankyou!
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Post by mikemyers 9/30/2020, 9:34 pm

chopper wrote:.............I took the single action route because it's a quicker way for ME to learn, I do shoot double action but only for combat........ Nice thing about revolvers is that dry firing is the best way to improve on rapid fire. When you think how accurate firing SF using single action, which most shooters do, then timed or rapid is just 4 more of those.........
Stan, for a couple of hours last night I tried to shoot like in the video Oleg linked to.  I tried this morning in our "fun match".  The photo below is the result, but technically the last round is after the time ran out, so I need to practice a lot more.  I'm only posting the photo here to show that the advice you guys gave me works.  Next week's match, we will both use High Standards.  As to revolvers, maybe by this time next year I'll be good with them.  

If I post more about this, it will be in the appropriate forum.  I need to put things away for a while, and get back to my "homework" from CrankyThunder.   :-)

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Post by Oleg G 10/1/2020, 6:10 am

Great shooting, Mike!
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Post by DA/SA 10/1/2020, 6:47 am

Yes, the progress you have made in the last few months has been amazing!
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Post by mikemyers 10/1/2020, 10:05 am

Thank you all - lots of great feedback here, and going to the range four or five times every week along with dry-fire just about every day.  That, and following so much excellent advice.  I hope too many people aren't frustrated with me - I'm not a very fast learner.
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