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Shooting Quiet 22's in a model 41

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Shooting Quiet 22's in a model 41 Empty Shooting Quiet 22's in a model 41

Post by farmer44 on 10/30/2020, 11:36 am

I have a case of quiet 22's and was trying to shoot them in a Model 41 S&W. As I suspected not enough recoil to eject shell, I had a few extra springs but after shortening them a bit at a time still no luck. Any suggestions appreciated. Thanks for looking.

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Shooting Quiet 22's in a model 41 Empty Re: Shooting Quiet 22's in a model 41

Post by GME on 10/30/2020, 11:52 am

Maybe buying a set of reduced power recoil springs from Wolff?   The set includes 6#, 6.5# and 7# (7.5# is standard), or you can buy the springs individually.

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Post by farmer44 on 10/30/2020, 12:04 pm

yes already tried that route but thanks

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Shooting Quiet 22's in a model 41 Empty Re: Shooting Quiet 22's in a model 41

Post by Wobbley on 10/30/2020, 12:50 pm

Based on a quick calculation, you’d have to get a spring with about a 5.6 pound rating from Wolff.  I’m sure that would be a custom.  Cutting coils from a 6.0 pound spring might work for a while, but cutting coils doesn’t really affect the spring rate which is defined as pounds per inch of deflection.  The spring rate times deflection is the energy.  Quiet 22 has about 70% of the energy of SV22 .  You’d probably have to drop wire size and number of active coils to get there.
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Post by LenV on 10/30/2020, 12:51 pm

It would depend on how important it is to you to make this work. Numrich has used slides for 163.00. EBay is out right now but you see them on there a lot. It should be possible to lighten that slide a lot for reduced power loads. High standard made their 22 short slides out of Aluminum. A lot of work unless you really like the idea of shooting reduced loads. Personally I would acquire a model 17 and shoot them all up.
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Post by Jack H on 10/30/2020, 3:41 pm

You still got a hammer spring to compress no matter what you use for recoil spring.
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Shooting Quiet 22's in a model 41 Empty Re: Shooting Quiet 22's in a model 41

Post by WesG on 10/30/2020, 4:05 pm

Wobbley wrote:Based on a quick calculation, you’d have to get a spring with about a 5.6 pound rating from Wolff.  I’m sure that would be a custom.  Cutting coils from a 6.0 pound spring might work for a while, but cutting coils doesn’t really affect the spring rate which is defined as pounds per inch of deflection.  The spring rate times deflection is the energy.  Quiet 22 has about 70% of the energy of SV22 .  You’d probably have to drop wire size and number of active coils to get there.

Cutting coils raises the spring rate. Shorter piece of wire deflects less under the same load. And they work by the twisting the wire, FWIW.

Cutting it reduces the preload though. So it's easier to get moving.

So, yeah, lighter wire, or more turns, or both.

And they made 41's for shorts. No idea what the difference is. Maybe an aluminum slide like HS?

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Post by bruce martindale on 10/30/2020, 7:18 pm

The slide area similar to a 1911 firing pin stop contacts the hammer low and therefore provides a lot of resistance to slide opening. The area is sharp as opposed to a rounded fp stop. This is why 41s are fussy on ammo and spring changes won't work. Needs enough jerk to run right....

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Post by tovaert on 10/31/2020, 9:16 am

One option is to measure the wire diameter (d), the OD of the spring, and the (approximate) total length of the spring, with a dial caliper. You then need to know the number of "active" coils in the spring (na). Assuming that both ends of the spring are squared off, count the total number of coils in the spring and subtract 2. If only one coil is squared off then you would only subtract 1. The mean diameter of the spring, Dm = OD - d. The shear modulus (G) of most steels is roughly 11,500,000 psi. 

Then use this formula to calculate the spring rate:

k =  (G x d^4) / (8 x Dm^3 x na)

I don't have the exact specifications for a Model 41, but here's an approximate M41 spring calculation. OD = 0.3", d = 0.029", na = 33 coils. In this case, k = 1.55 lb/in. Note that this value implies that compressing the spring 1" requires a force of 1.55 lb. Of course that's different than how recoil springs are specified.

You can find stock springs in various geometries from thespringstore.com. I ran a search for stock compression springs given the following ranges:

OD ---> 0.25" to 0.40"
Length ---> 4" to 6"
Spring Rate ---> 0.5 to 3.0 [lb/in]

The catalog results are here:

https://www.thespringstore.com/catalogsearch/advanced/result/?cs_od%5Bfrom%5D=0.25&cs_od%5Bto%5D=0.4&cs_fl%5Bfrom%5D=4&cs_fl%5Bto%5D=6&cs_rt%5Bfrom%5D=0.4992&cs_rt%5Bto%5D=2.9988&cs_ld%5Bfrom%5D=&cs_ld%5Bto%5D=&cs_dt%5Bfrom%5D=&cs_dt%5Bto%5D=&cs_tc%5Bfrom%5D=&cs_tc%5Bto%5D=&cs_sh%5Bfrom%5D=&cs_sh%5Bto%5D=&cs_id%5Bfrom%5D=&cs_id%5Bto%5D=&cs_wd%5Bfrom%5D=&cs_wd%5Bto%5D=&cs_mt=&search=stock-compression-springs&unit_measure=en

You'll want to make sure that the ID of the spring fits over the guide rod, and that the solid length of the spring (spring length when fully compressed and all coils touching) is sufficiently small such that the slide fully retracts. 

You can also use two springs end-to-end (in series). For springs in series, the equivalent spring rate k_eq can be calculated by;

1/k_eq = 1/k_1 + 1/k_2

For example, if you assume that you want a 5" long spring with a rate of 1 lb/in, then you would put two springs in series, each 2.5" long, and each with a spring rate of 2 lb/in. (1/k_eq = 1/2 + 1/2 ---> k_eq = 1).

They have a minimum order quantity of $40, but an experiment to see what works would easily cover that. You could also experiment and reduce the hammer spring rate. I wonder if anyone has ever looked at reducing hammer spring rate to see what the minimum rate would be for consistent ignition.

This may seem a bit complicated, but it's doable. I used this method of "reverse engineering" existing springs in order to "re-spring" the Sig P210A (flatwire (recoil) and sear springs) for EIC competition.  

I'm happy to help if you want to pursue this path...but as I said I don't own a M41.


Last edited by tovaert on 10/31/2020, 9:41 am; edited 1 time in total (Reason for editing : Correction)

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Shooting Quiet 22's in a model 41 Empty Re: Shooting Quiet 22's in a model 41

Post by WesG on 10/31/2020, 10:38 am

Reading between the lines, so to speak, I've got the impression one of the 'fixes' is to recontour the bolt to improve the leverage it has to recock the hammer.

But I've seen nothing in the way of pictures, or a solid description of what it should look like, assuming it's even the correct thing to do.

Any input from someone who's had one tuned up by a pro?

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Post by Domino1 on 10/31/2020, 2:34 pm

I did see this on eBay:

https://www.ebay.com/itm/Rare-FACTORY-SMITH-AND-WESSON-MODEL-41-1-Aluminum-Slide-22-Short/264916169001?hash=item3dae3bf129:g:vOwAAOSwiuRfmdst

You would need a 22 short mag too.

Please note that is the old style slide with a notch for the safety as you would expect.  You might have the new style slide with no notch for the safety.  I am not sure if they are compatible to switch..

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Post by mans on 11/1/2020, 5:32 pm

I wind my own 41 springs and experimented trying to make a spring that would cycle using the Quiet round. I kept reducing weight down to about a #5.3 and finally gave up because I ran out of smaller diameter music wire.

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Post by farmer44 on 11/2/2020, 4:35 am

Thanks again for all the input looks like I may as well just keep shooting the long rifle. Again thanks everyone.

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Post by bruce martindale on 11/2/2020, 2:11 pm

I'm not a pro but it's what I did to make mine run within the normal range of sv ammo. I doubt you could ever get quit to run reliably in a 41. Take care

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