Bullseye-L Forum
Would you like to react to this message? Create an account in a few clicks or log in to continue.

How to score a match

+16
john bickar
xman
mikemyers
clark2245
Ed Hall
-TT-
SteveT
CR10X
TonyH
mpolans
james r chapman
DA/SA
Wobbley
radjag
chiz1180
mikemargolis
20 posters

Page 1 of 2 1, 2  Next

Go down

How to score a match Empty How to score a match

Post by mikemargolis Sun Nov 22, 2020 4:47 pm

Hi All,

I asked this question elsewhere and got a lot of conflicting answers.

What I am looking for is if there is a legal or rulebook  answer. (of course, I am open to practical advice on how it is best done)

Personally, I start on the left and do X's, then 10's, then 9s etc moving right. That works for me, but if it's illegal, I'll change. The gent who scored my sheet (attached) put X's on the right. I don't know if he worked L to R or R to L.
I have been told X's go on the right, and I have beem told X's go on the left
I have been told work right to left, and I have been told work left to right.

I also heard that scoresheet MUST be in pen, not pencil. Is that one true?

NRA rulebook has no references to "pen", "pencil" or "scoresheet."How to score a match 900sco10

mikemargolis

Posts : 216
Join date : 2019-02-26
Location : Connecticut

radjag likes this post

Back to top Go down

How to score a match Empty Re: How to score a match

Post by chiz1180 Sun Nov 22, 2020 4:56 pm

In my opinion it doesn’t matter if you add up the score correctly and fill it out neatly. It makes it easier to double check the math if the score card is filled out in a logical manner, how your card is filled out is fine.
chiz1180
chiz1180

Posts : 702
Join date : 2019-05-29

Back to top Go down

How to score a match Empty Re: How to score a match

Post by radjag Sun Nov 22, 2020 5:10 pm

Mike,

A very interesting post.

I too am lacking in knowledge and practical experience about the "proper" method.

I have had the habit, up to now, of marking scores in the same manner as your scorer, Mr. Joyce, starting with the low scoring shots on the left and working to the right. But I did notice several instances recently that if there is a "missing" shot it might not become apparent till after entering the scores of the other nine - then that late-coming "miss" messes up the logic of my habit.

So, I think that I will try to reverse my method. From now on I will enter the X's first on the left side, then 10's, etc., progressively to the right. Of course there is another preliminary step - count the holes first to be sure that you are seeing ten and ask if it is not obvious where one or more might have gone!

Of course my scorer never has to face that problem, cause I never miss! I wish Rolling Eyes Rolling Eyes
lol! lol! lol!

radjag

Posts : 1080
Join date : 2017-03-22
Age : 66
Location : Oregon

Back to top Go down

How to score a match Empty Re: How to score a match

Post by Wobbley Sun Nov 22, 2020 5:20 pm

In theory the scores have been written highest to lowest due to “countback” tie breaking.  But unless the match is really big, it really doesn’t make any difference.  So long as it’s legible and consistent it shouldn’t matter to the stat office.

Now with E targets, the scores can be recorded as they happen.  So countback ties are easy.
Wobbley
Wobbley

Posts : 3663
Join date : 2015-02-12

Back to top Go down

How to score a match Empty Re: How to score a match

Post by mikemargolis Sun Nov 22, 2020 5:24 pm

Wobbley wrote:In theory the scores have been written highest to lowest due to “countback” tie breaking. 
Interesting. 

In one league I shoot in, if there's a tie, highest Rapid Fire score wins.

In my other league, X count determines winner. Not sure what'd happen if net score and X count were both tied.

mikemargolis

Posts : 216
Join date : 2019-02-26
Location : Connecticut

Back to top Go down

How to score a match Empty Re: How to score a match

Post by DA/SA Sun Nov 22, 2020 5:28 pm

I start with the lowest scores and work up to the 10's or X's (listing them from right to left) so you don't have to alter your method if scoring an alibi target or one with too many holes.
DA/SA
DA/SA

Posts : 938
Join date : 2017-10-09
Age : 66
Location : Southeast Florida

farmboy, DonBrummer, mpolans and radjag like this post

Back to top Go down

How to score a match Empty Re: How to score a match

Post by james r chapman Sun Nov 22, 2020 5:59 pm

DA/SA wrote:I start with the lowest scores and work up to the 10's or X's (listing them from right to left) so you don't have to alter your method if scoring an alibi target or one with too many holes.
+1
james r chapman
james r chapman
Admin

Posts : 5582
Join date : 2012-01-31
Age : 73
Location : HELL, Michigan

mpolans likes this post

Back to top Go down

How to score a match Empty Re: How to score a match

Post by DA/SA Sun Nov 22, 2020 6:02 pm

It must be a left handed thing!  Wink
DA/SA
DA/SA

Posts : 938
Join date : 2017-10-09
Age : 66
Location : Southeast Florida

Back to top Go down

How to score a match Empty Re: How to score a match

Post by james r chapman Sun Nov 22, 2020 6:50 pm

lol

How to score a match 2935285009
james r chapman
james r chapman
Admin

Posts : 5582
Join date : 2012-01-31
Age : 73
Location : HELL, Michigan

Back to top Go down

How to score a match Empty Re: How to score a match

Post by mikemargolis Sun Nov 22, 2020 7:13 pm

DA/SA wrote:I start with the lowest scores and work up to the 10's or X's (listing them from right to left) so you don't have to alter your method if scoring an alibi target or one with too many holes.
This is completely logical.

Although, I always start by counting holes.

mikemargolis

Posts : 216
Join date : 2019-02-26
Location : Connecticut

chopper and mpolans like this post

Back to top Go down

How to score a match Empty Re: How to score a match

Post by mpolans Sun Nov 22, 2020 11:19 pm

mikemargolis wrote:
DA/SA wrote:I start with the lowest scores and work up to the 10's or X's (listing them from right to left) so you don't have to alter your method if scoring an alibi target or one with too many holes.
This is completely logical.

Although, I always start by counting holes.
This is exactly what I do.

mpolans

Posts : 587
Join date : 2016-05-27

Back to top Go down

How to score a match Empty Re: How to score a match

Post by radjag Sun Nov 22, 2020 11:26 pm

Ah! DA/SA raises a very good point, automatically accounting for Alibi holes. Good thinking.

But, as Mike Margolis asserts, count holes first. Only problem with that is, if you are scoring John B or one of the other 2650 shooters, there is often just one ragged hole in the middle of the target.🥵

radjag

Posts : 1080
Join date : 2017-03-22
Age : 66
Location : Oregon

Back to top Go down

How to score a match Empty Re: How to score a match

Post by TonyH Mon Nov 23, 2020 3:48 am

DA/SA wrote:I start with the lowest scores and work up to the 10's or X's (listing them from right to left) so you don't have to alter your method if scoring an alibi target or one with too many holes.
Agree with this method, making sure one accounts for shots not on paper or not fired on each target.
For those of us using the Precision Shooting Matches website for score and stats record keeping, scorecards with X's entered on the left and working down to the right, makes it it a lot easier/faster to enter the scorecard on the site. The quick entry buttons are set up to follow this method.
How to score a match Psmsco10
TonyH
TonyH

Posts : 677
Join date : 2018-08-06
Location : Utah's Dixie

Back to top Go down

How to score a match Empty Re: How to score a match

Post by DA/SA Mon Nov 23, 2020 4:28 am

Yes, I always count holes first.

If there are only nine holes, my first entry would be a "0" listing from right to left.

Having learned so much from this site, I especially took note of Cecil's (CR10X) write up about scoring, (or how not to!) and find that I am nearly always the guy back sitting on the bench behind the firing line waiting for everyone else to finish scoring targets...
DA/SA
DA/SA

Posts : 938
Join date : 2017-10-09
Age : 66
Location : Southeast Florida

Back to top Go down

How to score a match Empty Re: How to score a match

Post by CR10X Mon Nov 23, 2020 4:42 am

OK, here's my preference both as a scorer and as the Stat Office / RO / Match Director / guy who has to run the match, read, verify totals and input the scoresheets. 

The main thing is not how the scores are on the card (although I appreciate consistency).  Its getting set up to accurately and efficiently score the target for the shooter (so you, and the rest of us, can get back to shooting....) BUT, remember its not your score but the other guy's score.

First off, look at the target as you approach and count all the holes you see.  That will set you up for the best method to use and reduce time.  The MD / RO or shooter should have already told you the alibi target round count so you will know what you have to deal with for that one. 

Also counting holes first will let you know if you are dealing with excessive hits, less than number of required shots, doubles, etc. 

Excessive hits requires you to score the high ten and low ten and record them off the card, unless the shooter accepts the low ten for the target.  You know the shooter can refire, but his score on the refire target cannot exceed the high ten on the first target, so both scores needed to be recorded.

Just score the target the best you can, just like it was your own. The shooter can accept, ask for plugs or challenge.  No big deal and neither the scorer or shooter should make a big deal of it.  It's just a hole in the target.

Now for my preferences, what seems to work for me. 

Yes, I prefer pen, but its not required.  (Actually "write in rain" is the best.  Pencils smudge, don't work in rain, people try to erase, etc.) And since its the other guy's score I want the stat office to be able to read it.  And I'd appreciate the stat office being able to read my score.  (I loan out a lot of pens in the rain at Perry / Canton!)

However, penmanship and basic math skills are very much appreciated!!  

Since I know what I'm dealing with by counting the holes as I approach the target, for regular 10 shot targets I prefer going left to right, starting with X's.  That way I will cover the close shots that need to go into the higher ring and not have to look back.  (And for me personally I tend to want to remember the better shots and I like seeing a bunch of X's lined up first on the card  Very Happy Very Happy Very Happy  )

If I'm dealing with other situations (from counting holes above, alibi counts, etc.) and for knothole short line targets I fill in from right to left starting with the lowest scoring ring / misses. (Most scorers mess up the alibi targets by not accounting for misses / unfired rounds first anyway.)  That also works for the knothole short line targets. Just fill in what's out of the X and work backwards for those until you fill up the 10 slots. (You'll get the hang of it scoring for Shue, Grayson, Phil, John B., etc.)

That way, the shot scores still go from high to low / left to right and helps me check scores since I always count points down to check the totals. 

So specifically, I write the scores high to low / left to right and then add up points down starting on the right and working left on the card.  That way I start adding the bigger numbers down first and then get the X count. So my attention to the card is left to right writing scores and right to left adding up points down.  Its just easier for me to add up that way for some reason.  And is probably why some people like to start with the lower shot scores.  To each his own.  (But I still like seeing the X's and 10's lined up first for me!)   

Again, all this is personal preference.  

But no matter how you do it, the important thing is to accurately and efficiently score the target for the shooter and helping out the stat office as much as you can (legible numbers and math)!

CR

CR10X

Posts : 1721
Join date : 2011-06-17
Location : NC

chopper, orpheoet, TonyH, mikemargolis and chiz1180 like this post

Back to top Go down

How to score a match Empty Re: How to score a match

Post by SteveT Mon Nov 23, 2020 6:27 am

I prefer high score on the left because that is where most people start looking (as English readers) and most of the focus is on the ends, so shooters see their best shots and the total score. It's better to focus on the good shots.
SteveT
SteveT

Posts : 860
Join date : 2011-06-10
Location : Illinois

https://sites.google.com/site/sdturner/shooting

Back to top Go down

How to score a match Empty Re: How to score a match

Post by -TT- Mon Nov 23, 2020 7:35 am

My app puts up the low-10 scoring grid as CR describes, when you use the calculator. I'd love some extra eyes on that, and if it can be improved, your comments!

https://www.bullseyeforum.net/t15973-bullseye-match-free-app-for-android-ios-and-windows
Attachments
How to score a match Attachment
calculator.png You don't have permission to download attachments.(46 Kb) Downloaded 7 times

-TT-

Posts : 446
Join date : 2016-10-18

Back to top Go down

How to score a match Empty Re: How to score a match

Post by Ed Hall Mon Nov 23, 2020 8:08 am

Some good points were made above and you'll see that I make use of several, myself.

As, others do, I first determine that I know where all shots are.  Then, I try to be consistent, so I (nearly) always work from right to left, low to high for these reasons (some already presented):

1: It automatically takes care of refires.

2: The "points down" are heavier near the total block.

3: The X-count is displayed by the shot number on the score card for the last X.

Do note that the rule book does indeed cover what is to be written on a scoresheet:
NRA Rule Book wrote:14.14 Scorer’s Duties -
(a) When targets are scored before their removal from the
frame the scorer records the value of each hit on score
card while holding the card in such a position that com-
petitor may see score being recorded. Only “X” and Ara-
bic numerals must be used when shot values are entered,
misses are marked as “M”.
You shouldn't get in the habit of marking misses with a "0" (zero), which can be easily made into a "10" (ten), physically or by optical illusion.  Even though no one would do that intentionally, the stats worker can differentiate better if zeroes aren't used for misses.  (As an aside, I used to think about the "misses are marked as M." and would add, or they will be counted as . . . misses.  Hmmm.)

One last thought for scorers:  NEVER get in the habit of something like: X - - - - X 10 10 9 9 = 98-6x!  The official score for that target is 58-6x.  Even though, M's aren't used and most stats officials would "give" the 98-6x score,  you should never test that.  It may give someone grief they don't need.

One last thought for those interested in tie-breaking: There are specific rules for breaking ties that may look inconsistent.  These rules must be stepped through in order to make the correct decision.  They are based on several things such as most X's, least hits of lowest value, Rapid fire for certain matches, etc.  The steps must be taken as a whole, not piecemeal to properly break ties.  And realize, some can't be broken.  To better understand tie-breaking, one should review chapter 15 of the rule book.

Ed Hall

Posts : 930
Join date : 2012-09-10
Location : Adirondack Mountains

http://www.starreloaders.com/edhall/

bruce martindale and cdrt like this post

Back to top Go down

How to score a match Empty Re: How to score a match

Post by Ed Hall Mon Nov 23, 2020 8:10 am

-TT- wrote:My app puts up the low-10 scoring grid as CR describes, when you use the calculator. I'd love some extra eyes on that, and if it can be improved, your comments!
That works perfect for me!

Ed Hall

Posts : 930
Join date : 2012-09-10
Location : Adirondack Mountains

http://www.starreloaders.com/edhall/

Back to top Go down

How to score a match Empty Re: How to score a match

Post by CR10X Mon Nov 23, 2020 8:54 am

And remember when filling out the scorecards,  NRA misses = M; CMP misses = 0 and mark the little circle for "M".   (And for CMP an X = "10" and mark the little circle for "X".  Shocked )  They really should give a class for new CMP shooters.


Last edited by CR10X on Mon Nov 23, 2020 10:58 am; edited 1 time in total (Reason for editing : added new "CMP" shooters to be more specific.)

CR10X

Posts : 1721
Join date : 2011-06-17
Location : NC

Back to top Go down

How to score a match Empty Re: How to score a match

Post by -TT- Mon Nov 23, 2020 10:21 am

CR10X wrote:And remember when filling out the scorecards,  NRA misses = M; CMP misses = 0 and mark the little circle for "M".   (And for CMP an X = "10" and mark the little circle for "X".  Shocked )  They really should give a class for new shooters.

Good luck with making a class. In my experience it would take hours. Smile I will say though that the calculator in my app was super-helpful for teaching new shooters. We'd hand them their own target and tell them to click the rings, and compare to what their scorer wrote. Apart from catching an amazing number of simple math errors, and "why didn't you count my 11 shots?", the Alibi function paid for itself in explanation time.

FYI, my app uses "M" to record a Miss. It's not shown in the screenshot I posted!

-TT-

Posts : 446
Join date : 2016-10-18

Back to top Go down

How to score a match Empty Re: How to score a match

Post by CR10X Mon Nov 23, 2020 11:01 am

We usually get our new bullseye shooters squared away on scoring pretty well.  And I tend to keep an eye on alibi and excessive hit targets just to help out if needed.  It's just the different CMP process that trips them up.  Well that, and using an overlay on JHP / Ball ammo....

CR

CR10X

Posts : 1721
Join date : 2011-06-17
Location : NC

Back to top Go down

How to score a match Empty Re: How to score a match

Post by DA/SA Mon Nov 23, 2020 11:05 am

Ed Hall wrote:You shouldn't get in the habit of marking misses with a "0" (zero), which can be easily made into a "10" (ten), physically or by optical illusion.  Even though no one would do that intentionally, the stats worker can differentiate better if zeroes aren't used for misses.  (As an aside, I used to think about the "misses are marked as M." and would add, or they will be counted as . . . misses.  Hmmm.)
"M" it is from now on rather than "0"!

Thank You!
DA/SA
DA/SA

Posts : 938
Join date : 2017-10-09
Age : 66
Location : Southeast Florida

Back to top Go down

How to score a match Empty Re: How to score a match

Post by clark2245 Wed Nov 25, 2020 1:35 pm

Some good points above, but a couple of requests / reminders.   As a MD and stat office myself, please check your math.  I find some really surprising math errors and it just goes faster as I verify score cards if your math is correct.  I usually do the math on that target a second time if I don't agree with the total on that line just to be sure I'm correct before changing the score you wrote down.

Also remember that it is each shot total, not the number you wrote in the total score block, that counts.  The stat people should be verifying the score based on each individual shot, so be sure you have written them down correctly.  Otherwise you just messed up the shooters reported score.

clark2245

Posts : 108
Join date : 2011-06-18
Location : North Carolina

Back to top Go down

How to score a match Empty Re: How to score a match

Post by mikemyers Thu May 27, 2021 11:50 am

Confused about something.

Let's say you get only two rounds of the first magazine of five rounds off, and the third round jams.  You call for an alibi.  Then, on your second magazine, you shoot five rounds out of five OK.  Now you go up to shoot your alibi round.  The shooter I am thinking of then fired off five more rounds - meaning there will be 12 holes in the target, of which the best two will be excluded.

Why don't these shooter fire off only two rounds, to replace the missing rounds that never got fired the first time?  Then there will be only 10 holes in the target, of which all ten (including the best) will be counted?

I was scoring from someone last week at the club match, and he lost two of his best shots, because of this.  

Or, phrased more simply, in an alibi round, why would a shooter fire off any more rounds than just enough to put ten holes in his target?
mikemyers
mikemyers

Posts : 3925
Join date : 2016-07-26
Age : 78
Location : South Florida, and India

Back to top Go down

How to score a match Empty Re: How to score a match

Post by Sponsored content


Sponsored content


Back to top Go down

Page 1 of 2 1, 2  Next

Back to top

- Similar topics

 
Permissions in this forum:
You cannot reply to topics in this forum