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How to score a match

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How to score a match - Page 2 Empty How to score a match

Post by mikemargolis 11/22/2020, 6:47 pm

First topic message reminder :

Hi All,

I asked this question elsewhere and got a lot of conflicting answers.

What I am looking for is if there is a legal or rulebook  answer. (of course, I am open to practical advice on how it is best done)

Personally, I start on the left and do X's, then 10's, then 9s etc moving right. That works for me, but if it's illegal, I'll change. The gent who scored my sheet (attached) put X's on the right. I don't know if he worked L to R or R to L.
I have been told X's go on the right, and I have beem told X's go on the left
I have been told work right to left, and I have been told work left to right.

I also heard that scoresheet MUST be in pen, not pencil. Is that one true?

NRA rulebook has no references to "pen", "pencil" or "scoresheet."How to score a match - Page 2 900sco10

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Post by xman 5/27/2021, 2:08 pm

mikemyers wrote:Confused about something.

Let's say you get only two rounds of the first magazine of five rounds off, and the third round jams.  You call for an alibi.  Then, on your second magazine, you shoot five rounds out of five OK.  Now you go up to shoot your alibi round.  The shooter I am thinking of then fired off five more rounds - meaning there will be 12 holes in the target, of which the best two will be excluded.

Why don't these shooter fire off only two rounds, to replace the missing rounds that never got fired the first time?  Then there will be only 10 holes in the target, of which all ten (including the best) will be counted?

I was scoring from someone last week at the club match, and he lost two of his best shots, because of this.  

Or, phrased more simply, in an alibi round, why would a shooter fire off any more rounds than just enough to put ten holes in his target?
I gather that the alibi was a TF or RF stage? The shooter must shoot a full five and be given the full time to shoot it. Otherwise giving the shooter the full time for the missing round gives an unfair advantage of xtra time for the missing shots.

Conversely, allotting a shortened time for the missing shots would be unfair to the shooter.

How much time would you give for each of the missing shots and the timer for turning shots may not be adjustable anyway. And manually
pushing buttons to turn targets is froth with problems.
FWIW
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Post by mikemyers 5/27/2021, 2:19 pm

I'll drop out of this, and let you guys find out what the rules say.

If it was TF or RF, you're right, this could be unfair to other shooters.  But suppose the shooter fired off five rounds, and then four rounds of the second magazine, and the last round jammed.  If he was forced to fire off another fiver rounds, out of 14 holes on the target, he would lose his best four.  That doesn't sound fair to the shooter....    .....and based on past experience, nobody seems to be watching alibi shooters to see how many rounds they do or do not fire.

Is there a printed rule that explains what MUST be done, regardless of whether or not it is "fair" to the shooter, or to the other shooters?
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Post by xman 5/27/2021, 2:35 pm

mikemyers wrote:and based on past experience, nobody seems to be watching alibi shooters to see how many rounds they do or do not fire.

Is there a printed rule that explains what MUST be done, regardless of whether or not it is "fair" to the shooter, or to the other shooters?
Other shooters do pay attention (well I do anyway) even though it is a "honor system", and the scorer WILL find the error. The RO who determined the alibi likely will be around to affirm the full refire. I believe the following covers it

10.10 Procedure in Case of Defective Cartridge, Disabled Pistol or Malfunction in Timed and Rapid Fire - Note: Rule 10.10(a) is to apply for all Regional and National Championships. Rule 10.10(b) may be used for other tournaments provided tournament program clearly states that Rule 10.10(b) will apply for that tournament. Otherwise 10.10(a) will apply. (a) In the event of a defective cartridge (Rule 9.4), disabled pistol (Rule 9.5), or malfunction (Rule 9.6), before a string is completed in timed or rapid fire, the competitor 2020 NRA PRECISION PISTOL RULEBOOK ■ 25 shall be privileged to fire another five shot string, provided he assumes the “Ready” position and calls the Range Officer by holding up the non-shooting hand at the end of the time period. The Range Officer will inspect the pistol, and may even ask that the pistol be fired, if satisfied that there is a disabled pistol, defective cartridge, malfunction, or optical sight failure, will determine the number of unfired cartridges remaining in the pistol or bullets that have failed to leave the barrel. If at any time during Timed or Rapid Fire, if a competitor attempts to clear a malfunction with non-shooting hand they will be denied a re-fire. The competitor will then fire another complete five shot string on the same target. The competitor may attempt to complete firing per Rule 10.11. (b) If a cartridge fails to fire, or misfires or a pistol fails to function in timed or rapid fire, the competitor will not be allowed to refire the string. The competitor may attempt to complete firing per Rule 10.11. Example - In timed or rapid fire a competitor has a misfire on the fourth shot. The Ready Position will be assumed and at the end of the time limit calls the Range Officer. The Range Officer inspects the gun, finds conditions as claimed, and finds 2 unfired cartridges in the gun. The competitor is then given orders to “LOAD 5 ROUNDS” and fires another 5 shot string on the same target.
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Post by mikemyers 5/27/2021, 2:40 pm

Thanks 'xman' - that answers my question, and then some.
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Post by DA/SA 5/27/2021, 3:06 pm

Since we have a couple things going on here that kind of blend together...

I list the shots on the score sheet from right to left and start with the lowest scoring shot. 

That way if there is an alibi involved the highest scoring shots will automatically be eliminated as only the ten lowest scoring shots can be listed in the space provided.

That can be a bit problematic if the shooter had a shot or two completely off the target backer, but you figure that out by knowing how many shots were actually fired vs the number of holes in the target. Always start by counting holes before scoring and verifying how many shots were actually fired.
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Post by mikemyers 5/27/2021, 3:43 pm

I didn't know (or forgot) all of the above.  Last Sunday was my first match since 2019.
I'll remember this coming Sunday.
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Post by mikemargolis 5/27/2021, 4:01 pm

mikemyers wrote:I'll drop out of this, and let you guys find out what the rules say.

If it was TF or RF, you're right, this could be unfair to other shooters.  But suppose the shooter fired off five rounds, and then four rounds of the second magazine, and the last round jammed.  If he was forced to fire off another fiver rounds, out of 14 holes on the target, he would lose his best four.  That doesn't sound fair to the shooter....    .....and based on past experience, nobody seems to be watching alibi shooters to see how many rounds they do or do not fire.

Is there a printed rule that explains what MUST be done, regardless of whether or not it is "fair" to the shooter, or to the other shooters?
One of my leagues would have that shooter fire the one round he was not able to.

My other league follows the NRA rules and would have him fire five more.

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Post by xman 5/27/2021, 4:12 pm

mikemargolis wrote:One of my leagues would have that shooter fire the one round he was not able to.

My other league follows the NRA rules and would have him fire five more.

Is the first mentioned league indoor? And the second one outdoor?
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Post by mikemargolis 5/27/2021, 4:16 pm

xman wrote:
mikemargolis wrote:One of my leagues would have that shooter fire the one round he was not able to.

My other league follows the NRA rules and would have him fire five more.

Is the first mentioned league indoor? And the second one outdoor?
Nope, both indoor.

First does not report scores to the NRA, second does.

I am in New England, too cold for outdoor for most of the year.

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Post by xman 5/27/2021, 4:20 pm

mikemargolis wrote:
xman wrote:
mikemargolis wrote:One of my leagues would have that shooter fire the one round he was not able to.

My other league follows the NRA rules and would have him fire five more.

Is the first mentioned league indoor? And the second one outdoor?
Nope, both indoor.

First does not report scores to the NRA, second does.

I am in New England, too cold for outdoor for most of the year.
Yikes!  Scoring an indoor target with as many as 15 shots ...what a nightmare! IMHO
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Post by john bickar 5/27/2021, 4:58 pm

mikemyers wrote:why would a shooter fire off any more rounds than just enough to put ten holes in his target?

It's the "Joe Pascarella Rule".
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Post by xman 5/27/2021, 5:06 pm

john bickar wrote:
mikemyers wrote:why would a shooter fire off any more rounds than just enough to put ten holes in his target?

It's the "Joe Pascarella Rule".
I do recall Pascarellas pic on the cover of The American Rifleman. Early 80s? I did not read the article as I was not into pistol at the time.

Maybe I will dig it out of the score of Rifleman boxes I have.
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Post by john bickar 5/27/2021, 6:41 pm

I don't think that rule is going to be in the American Rifleman.
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Post by xman 5/27/2021, 6:53 pm

john bickar wrote:I don't think that rule is going to be in the American Rifleman.
Oh I am certain of that. An unwritten rule about NOT dumping part of a mag into the bank so only ten shots are on a target after an alibi round.

Though it can legitimately happen ..having only 10 record shots after an alibi shoot. A claimed and approved malfunction on first round ...FTFire, then claiming an alibi.

Got to check for a firing pin strike to get the alibi .... defective round. If I recall the rule correctly and what to do as an RO.
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Post by mikemyers 5/27/2021, 7:12 pm

xman wrote:.......An unwritten rule about NOT dumping part of a mag into the bank so only ten shots are on a target after an alibi round.......
So, if someone's second round in their first RF target is a dud, and goes 'click' rather than 'bang', and they shoot the second magazine with no efforts, what do they do in the alibi round?
Fire four rounds into the dirt behind the targets and have their ten best holes scored, or fire the five rounds in the alibi round into the target, knowing their four best hits will be ignored.

It's not theoretical, it happened to the fellow to my left, whose target I was scoring, and I think there were 13 holes total in the target.  His "worst" ten out of the 13 were scored.  He's been shooting bullseye since forever, and I guess he told me to do what he thought was correct.  

I suppose the shooter could just shoot more slowly, knowing that the targets would turn before he got off all the shots.  If there was a way to avoid it, why would anyone want to lose their best shots?

I have a feeling that most people at my club have never even thought about this - they get an alibi round, load five rounds, and shoot...   which apparently what the NRA rules say to do.
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Post by Ed Hall 5/27/2021, 8:23 pm

The shooter is responsible for the number of shots fired in the failed magazine AND two five round magazines, whether they fire all of those ten rounds from the two full magazines or not (if the competitor refires).*  If any of those shots are fired elsewhere than the target they are scored as misses. The RO is responsible for recording the number of shots fired for the alibi string and should announce the number of shots the competitor is responsible for when the competitors are sent to score.  The scorer is responsible for annotating the lowest ten values of the number the competitor is responsible for.

* The competitor does not have to fire a refire string, they can elect to skip the refire and accept the score as shot.  That way they don't lose their highest shots.  You would have to do a lot of math to figure out whether the score might be better keeping the high shots or adding in value from the gained shots over their coinciding misses.

As to shooting five shot strings, it's the fairest manner to cover all the possibilities.  It allows for multiple competitors to fire their refires at the same time regardless of varying numbers of shots off, as well as being fair to both those that get their first shot off at the turn vs. those who may take a couple seconds to settle into their first shot.

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Post by xman 5/27/2021, 8:37 pm

mikemyers wrote:
xman wrote:.......An unwritten rule about NOT dumping part of a mag into the bank so only ten shots are on a target after an alibi round.......
So, if someone's second round in their first RF target is a dud, and goes 'click' rather than 'bang', and they shoot the second magazine with no efforts, what do they do in the alibi round?

Answer: Load five and shoot

Fire four rounds into the dirt behind the targets and have their ten best holes scored,

Answers: NEVER

or fire the five rounds in the alibi round into the target, knowing their four best hits will be ignored.

Answer: Yes

It's not theoretical, it happened to the fellow to my left, whose target I was scoring, and I think there were 13 holes total in the target.  His "worst" ten out of the 13 were scored.

Answer: If he saved 3 rounds, correct, commonly called ... Low 10.

I suppose the shooter could just shoot more slowly, knowing that the targets would turn before he got off all the shots.  If there was a way to avoid it, why would anyone want to lose their best shots?

My personal answer: It is how the rule works. The RO has to pay attention the alibi shooters shoots.

I have a feeling that most people at my club have never even thought about this - they get an alibi round, load five rounds, and shoot...   which apparently what the NRA rules say to do.

Answer: Correct
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Post by impalanut 5/27/2021, 8:53 pm

The low ten include the unfired rounds in the gun and would count as zeroes. The range officer announced the number of rounds unfired, so any fewer than the unfired rounds plus the five in the alibi round would be zeroes.
Is this correct? And if so, dumping or not firing all the rounds in the alibi mag wouldn't matter.

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Post by rreid 5/27/2021, 9:52 pm

At every match I've participated in, if you raise your hand for an alibi, the RO will ask "how many rounds did you get off?" Then you drop the mag and clear the gun and the RO ostensibly verifies how many live rounds you have left. If you got 2 rounds off before the malfunction, you would have a 12 shot alibi. Doesn't matter if you save 2 rounds on the refire, you're still scored for the low 10 of 12 possible hits.
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Post by xman 5/27/2021, 9:59 pm

impalanut wrote:The low ten include the unfired rounds in the gun and would count as zeroes. The range officer announced the number of rounds unfired, so any fewer than the unfired rounds plus the five in the alibi round would be zeroes.
Is this correct? And if so, dumping or not firing all the rounds in the alibi mag wouldn't matter.
Unfired rounds do not count during the stage or the alibi round. No second alibi is allow.

We are starting to get into the weeds now.

The rules are pretty specific. But they can only be effective if the shooter is honest and does not try to evade the actual and/or the spirit of the rules.

ROs do pay attention (I do when called upon to inspect for the claimed alibi.)

http://rulebooks.nra.org/documents/pdf/compete/RuleBooks/Pistol/pistol-book.pdf 

The more you shoot the more you will be exposed to as far as alibis, FTFeed, FTEject, FTExtract, FTFire, defective rounds, range alibis and all the other finer points.

Anyone can cobble together various twisted scenarios to test the rules. But when it gets down to actually trying to do it, our better Angels take over.
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Post by MarkF45 5/28/2021, 12:51 am

40 replies and nobody answered the OP's question.

The actual question was: what does the rulebook say about how to record the individual shots?

The answer is the rulebook doesn't say anything about the order of the shots on the scorecard. You can put X's on the right or left, or in the middle, if you want. It doesn't matter.

What matters is that all of the shots are accounted for, and the sum is correct.

All of the people who told the OP that it had to be one way or another were wrong.

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Post by xman 5/28/2021, 3:00 am

CR10X wrote:
Yes, I prefer pen, but its not required.  (Actually "write in rain" is the best.  Pencils smudge, don't work in rain, people try to erase, etc.) And since its the other guy's score I want the stat office to be able to read it.  And I'd appreciate the stat office being able to read my score.  (I loan out a lot of pens in the rain at Perry / Canton!)

CR
Most pens cant write on wet paper. They skip, run or blot.

Write in the rain:

https://www.ebay.com/itm/362495354244?ssPageName=STRK%3AMEBIDX%3AIT&_trksid=p2060353.m1438.l2649


About Fisher Space Pens:

 It writes upside down, in the vacuum of space, on wet paper, underwater, in the freezing cold of -30° F, and the boiling heat of 250° F. 
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Post by nikonjockey 5/29/2021, 1:27 pm

Uni-Ball Power Tank pens work quite well also, and are less expensive.

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Post by mikemyers 5/31/2021, 12:43 pm

This is a real score card handed in at my match yesterday at Hollywood Rifle and Pistol Club.  I marked up the card to block out anyone's names.
The team entering the data into the computer were rather surprised!!!

I'm not going to laugh at this, as years ago I did something similar, before someone took me aside for a quick scoring lesson.

I love the saying: "Anything is easy to do, once you know how."
I still remember the days that I was as lost at this fellow - who used to know how to do it, but forgot.....

How to score a match - Page 2 Img_4410
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