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Pardini SP or AW-93

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Post by xman 12/4/2020, 1:37 pm

Currently I am shooting a Smith and Wesson model 41 with a Browning Buck Mark in reserve. I have concerns about my recoil control with both of them on both the long and short line. Could the forum members offer up some suggestions on the Pardini SP & or the AW-93. Mounting of a dot sight is important and to a lesser extent the price.
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Post by chiz1180 12/4/2020, 1:44 pm

Grip angle is different, trigger on either is a love it or hate it thing. It is easier to mount a larger tube style dot on the Pardini. If you are a fan of the aimpoint micro's Doug Hall's mount for the AW is fantastic. I would classify both of these options as a try before you buy.

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Post by James Hensler 12/4/2020, 1:49 pm

One unseen advantage that the Pardini Offers is the ability to add a 32 ACP in the future. 1 grip, 1 trigger in place of 2 guns

With a Rink or Standard Pardini grip it will have a European angle. With a Dick Horton it becomes more like a 1911
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Post by mspingeld 12/4/2020, 2:26 pm

I've had a Pardini but sold it. Now I have the AW93. They are both excellent guns but I like the balance of the Feinwerkbau much better. That being said, neither one is the answer. What you have can take you to Master.

However, if you're set on a new pistol, it would be a great help if you could shoot both before spending all that money. Ask around locally to see if you can find owners who will let you try before you buy.

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Post by xman 12/4/2020, 2:54 pm

mspingeld wrote:I've had a Pardini but sold it. Now I have the AW93. They are both excellent guns but I like the balance of the Feinwerkbau much better. That being said, neither one is the answer. What you have can take you to Master..

You’re not the first person to say that what I have already can take me to master.
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Post by xman 12/4/2020, 2:54 pm

I have just not been pleased with my progress over the last three years. I do practice and evaluate, I have a journal. I am now working on my foot positioning because there have been times when I really have to move my arm around to find the dot with my previous foot positioning.


Last edited by xman on 12/4/2020, 3:00 pm; edited 1 time in total
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Post by xman 12/4/2020, 2:55 pm

mspingeld wrote:I've had a Pardini but sold it. Now I have the AW93. They are both excellent guns but I like the balance of the Feinwerkbau much better. That being said, neither one is the answer. What you have can take you to Master..

You’re not the first person to say that what I have already can take me to master.
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Post by mspingeld 12/4/2020, 3:53 pm

Have you read Ed Hall's articles? They're excellent! https://starreloaders.com/edhall/12PPC01.html

When my wife asks me, "why do you need a new gun?", I respond, "need?, I'm sorry, I don't know that word". Smile

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Post by Jon Eulette 12/4/2020, 4:25 pm

You might consider getting your current pistols really nice "great" trigger jobs. Trigger has to be your friend even on the most expensive pistols. I could not get the Pardini to be my friend trigger wise so I sold it. But I typically shoot the same scores with all the .22's out there regardless of price.
If your stagnant as a shooter I recommend getting a coach. A coach will do wonders for your game.
Jon
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Post by Jwhelan939 12/4/2020, 5:16 pm

Jon Eulette wrote:You might consider getting your current pistols really nice "great" trigger jobs. Trigger has to be your friend even on the most expensive pistols. I could not get the Pardini to be my friend trigger wise so I sold it. But I typically shoot the same scores with all the .22's out there regardless of price.
If your stagnant as a shooter I recommend getting a coach. A coach will do wonders for your game.
Jon

Have really been thinking about a coach lately. Where would be a good place to look? I did a search but didn't see much. List of coaches would be a great sticky.

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Post by Oleg G 12/4/2020, 6:55 pm

In my humble opinion, a relationship with a pistol is a deeply personal thing for each shooter. From the perspective of performance and accuracy, your Model 41 will indeed take you to Master and beyond. However, using myself as an example, I could not become friends with the Model 41. When I tried AW93, it was love at first shot. I sold the Model 41 and bought AW93. After I equipped it with Dick Horton's grips I have a pistol that helps me to focus on my technical and mental training, instead of fighting me every step of the way.

I am sure that others have had a completely opposite experience. This is why I think that choosing a pistol is deeply personal.

As far as a coach, I don't know anyone locally but I have been working with the Air Pistol coach Dina Aspandiarova for close to 9 months now. While Dina specializes in Air Pistol, she understand ISSF Sports Pistol very well and has become familiar with Bullseye shooting. Fundamentals are fundamentals and mental game is mental game, regardless of the particular shooting discipline. I can wholeheartedly recommend Dina as an accomplished and effective remote coach. She is located in Australia and time-wise this works well with the USA: our evening is her morning. Working with her I am now shooting Master and High Master scores in training and hope to achieve Master classification when I return to shooting matches next year.
Dina is not a native English speaker but her English is very fluent and presents no limitations for the coach/student communications. In fact, while Russian is the native language for both of us, we speak English during our coaching sessions - it just works better Smile.

Again, I can wholeheartedly recommend Dina based on my personal very positive experience. You can connect with her via Facebook:

(20+) Freelance Pistol Coach - Dina Aspandiyarova | Facebook

Best Regards,
Oleg.
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Post by CrankyThunder 12/5/2020, 4:05 am

Hey Xman:

As the owner of both a Pardini and FWB, I think that I can give you some insight.  

First off, I agree wholeheartedly with the above post by Oleg concerning the selection of a pistol and a deep and personal relationship with each shooter.  

In my case, the Pardini is my handgun of choice but for you the FWB could be the one.  Unfortunately, opportunities to shoot either or both of them are probably few and far between.  I will offer this insight that has not been mentioned before.  

If you have medium or smaller hands, you should take a really close look at the pardini.  Personally, I have medium to large hands (85mm hand width across the knuckles on the inside, where most of the grip makers take their measurements) and the FWB and SW Model 41 are too large whereas I am unable to get a proper finger position on the trigger.  

If you ever get up here to Michigan, track me down, would be happy to meet you at the range with a couple cases of ammo to let you try each one to your hearts content.  Frankly, the pistols have a very different personality.  

Not sure if I can convey this but I will try..........

The pardini is more of a refined item that can be compared to a fine swiss watch and needs to be handled with care and precision to deliver master level scores.   Think of a Rolls Royce, a Ferrari, fine wine, the Japanese rail system, a quarter horse at the Kentucky derby.   

whereas the FWB you need to grab ahold of and muscle its way through a target.  More of a full blown drag racer, a double shot of cheap bourbon, a Big Old Honkin Steam engine snorting with power, a Belgian Draft Horse harnessed up full of attitude ready to pull the carriage apart.   

In slow fire, I consistently score better with the pardini.  With the FWB, I get more 10's but when I have a less then perfect trigger pull, it throws it into the 7 as opposed to the 8 or 9 of the pardini.  

Bottom line is that I like them both but prefer the Pardini.  My teammate, on the other hand, he also owns both but prefers his FWB.  

Regards, 
Cranky
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Post by xman 12/5/2020, 5:17 am

Well so far I have learned through searches and other research. The Pardini tends to be a maintenance hog, not so much the FWB. I have shot a modest amount of air pistol so I’m not deterred by the grip angle and rake of The FWB. I have not found much commentary on ammo sensitivity for either one. Mounting a dot on the Pardini looks like a modest effort whereas on the FWB considerable effort must be undertaken to get a proper fit. I know I said that price was a minor consideration but looking at the numbers the FWB tends to be 50 to 75% or more than the Pardini.
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Post by thessler 12/5/2020, 5:41 am

My FWB will shoot any ammo I put in it. So far it has never skipped a beat.
I agree it's a little large to wrap my hand around,  but the fabulous trigger makes up for that. 
Good luck , Tom

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Post by farmboy 12/5/2020, 7:48 am

xman wrote:Well so far I have learned through searches and other research. The  Pardini  tends to be a maintenance hog, 
Really? that has not been my experience or the people I know that shoot the gun. Very fast & easy gun to breakdown and cleaning is  quick and easy. Most people cause themselves problems by drowning the bolt in solvent which leads to issues and then double down by using to much oil at reassembly.  Go to their Youtube channel Pardini TV and watch some of their videos on breakdown and cleaning. They will show the process and recommendations. It actually takes less time then they show once you have done it a couple times. 

I will admit the mags require more attention than normal but nothing difficult.  Mine develop a wax/lube build up on the lip that if not wiped off regularly will cause some issues but is easy to do and you dont have to dissemble
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Post by mspingeld 12/5/2020, 8:09 am

I didn't have any maintenance or ammo issues with either pistol. On my FWB I use a Rink grip. I'm not a big guy (5'7", ~160 lbs) with medium size hands. Have no issues reaching the trigger. I did move it back to optimize but there's still room to move it further back.

The balance of the Pardini was an advantage in timed & rapid but a disadvantage in slow fire.

Confused? If you're shooting matches you may very well be able to find owners of both. Would really help your decision making.

I know! Buy both! Twisted Evil

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Post by james r chapman 12/5/2020, 8:13 am

YouTube is great for information

And watching the Rapid Fire matches is informative
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Post by CR10X 12/5/2020, 8:24 am

Surprised no one mentioned this. 

Isn't the real question or driver somewhere in "...concerns with recoil control..."?  

One should not seek solutions only in equipment.  

Try to identify your true issues and needs and the answer(s) will come easier.  Could be as simple as better grip technique, different grip to get conistent trigger finger position /grip pressure, addtitional position or grip strength training, etc.  Funny how we tend to fixate on a single negative and forget all the positives in a current option.  One additioinal thing to consider, what do you shoot for centerfire / .45 matches? 

Or you just might want or do better (mentally) with a new gun.  Just remember, honeymoons are oh so sweet, but also oh so short.  Commitment is one of the things that makes a long term, happy relationship. 

CR

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Post by xman 12/5/2020, 8:51 am

About 40% of the time my recoil is straight up and down it’s that other 60% that is go left go 10 o’clock or right to 2 o’clock and recovery to get back in the black Is troubling to say the least. Sometimes the left and right is really left and right and I find myself rushing especially along the short line. Hence my desire to possibly find a lower recoiling pistol in 22. I only shoot 22 because I am not gonna go back into reloading after reloading for years for high-power. I am working on my foot position, my grip strength/position and my arm raise to get on target at facing. Head and eye position is a very constant and finding the center is easy on that first round. I do keep a journal for notations.
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Post by CrankyThunder 12/5/2020, 2:04 pm

Hey X man:

I will disagree that the pardini is a maintenance hog.  Mine has been reliable as a unbreakable hammer.  I have owned mine since 2013 and only part that needed to be replaced is the plastic base of a magazine when I dropped it on the concrete floor fully loaded.  I did have a problem with light firing pin strikes around round number 60,000 (yes that is the 12th case of 5,000 rounds) and when I removed the firing pin it was so gunked up that the firing pin could barely move.  That is my fault because I was a bit heavy on the lubrication but I know better now.  I also replaced the recoil buffer but I am not sure it needed replacement at around round number 105,000.  

I have a slew of replacement springs but the original main spring is still good, same length as the replacement spring and the new spring did not feel any different then the old one so I put the old one back in.  The 13 o rings are still good, recently checked them when that was brought up on this forum a couple months ago.  

You can also adjust the weight and balance of the pardini by removing the steel counterweights/recoil reduction system in the nose, or replacing them with tungsten.  I run six tungsten weights in mine.  

The FWB also has a recoil reduction system but I think that the pardini system works better but both are really good.  I like that I have a perfect grip size with the pardini since I am not restrained with the grip size by the magazine in the grip. 

What you really gotta do is find one of each and spend a afternoon with a couple bricks of ammo at the range and put both of them through their paces.  

Somebody mentioned that you should buy one of each and find out for yourself.  Well, I run a bullseye team and before I purchased my pardini, I shot all of the available 22lr target pistols except a Matchgun.  I selected the pardini cause I liked it better but even with the pardini, I was wondering about the FWB.  Couple years later I purchased a FWB and while they are both awesome pistols, the Pardini is my favorite.  

If you are trying to use maintenance as a determination for one pistol over the other, well that simply will not wash.  Both of my pistols have been rock solid, dependable, a joy to shoot.  Quite frankly, it really comes down to personal preference.  There is not a wrong choice between the two.  

Regards, 
Crankster


Last edited by CrankyThunder on 12/5/2020, 2:07 pm; edited 1 time in total (Reason for editing : Misspellings added to verify authorship by engineer)
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Post by 285wannab 12/5/2020, 3:01 pm

First off I think the top shoots can shoot just about the same scores with any gun they use.  But, I have to admit it is nice to have a new gun.  I think Jon and Oleg have the right idea about coaching.
Here are my thoughts.  Keep the 41 and get a scatt.  You can work on your fundaments with the scatt.  Pick a score that you want to reach by using the scatt.  Once you reach that score buy a new gun.  Win, win.

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Post by TargetShooter27 12/6/2020, 12:35 pm

Xman,

I find recoil control to be more dependent on my state of mind, then the equipment (for .22).  When I'm "in the zone" everything around me slows down, I feel like I have all day to shoot a string and the dot effortlessly glides back to the bull.  As a new shooter it takes time and attention to fundamentals to be able to develop that, along with the confidence that you can do it.  A coach, even for a short time, would be a great investment for you to consider.

5-6 years ago I switched to the AW93 (from the M41) and have shot my PB's with the gun (including several targets in the top 10 at nationals and sectionals).  That said, there are other challenges it creates for me: 1) the 6 inch barrel is harder to control if you have a little tremor/shake in your hold (compared to a shorter 5" barrel)  2) the grip angle is unlike any 1911 .45.  Yes, you can buy 1911 grip adapters but I never thought it made sense to slide the crotch of my hand down the grip as they require.  3) the ammo it shoots best isn't as cheap as CCI SV.

My advice to you would be to think long term.  If your goal is to compete in both indoor/outdoor matches I would encourage you to consider a 1911 conversion unit that you can setup with a 3.5lb trigger to approximate your .45.  Your .22 scores will initially come down as you relearn to shoot a .22 with a heavier trigger, but you will be light years ahead with the .45 and eventually a more competitive all around shooter.

Best of luck with your decision.

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Post by mhayford45 12/7/2020, 9:14 am

You must accept recoil. All .22s recoil... I have owned most of them on my quest of finding the best overall compromise in fit, function and feel. 

What I have found, that may help you, is to make sure you are completely following through on the shot. This means follow through on the trigger and maintaining hold through the shot before resetting the trigger. Keep your arm, elbow and wrist firm through the shot. This will help you recover.

I have had a few top notch coaches in my quest. I have learned something from each one. It was worth the time and effort I spent with them. Jim Henderson has been helping me the last few months. In the end you must find your own path to mastership using what works for you.

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Post by mikemargolis 12/7/2020, 10:45 am

Both the AW93 and SP are amazing guns.

I was lucky enough to be able to shoot them both, as guys on my bullseye team own them.

For me being in Connecticut, any weapon with the magazine forward of the trigger is considered an Assault Weapon, so that factored into my decision. 

The Euro slant grip was not an issue for me, as I came from a Hi-Standard 103 with the same non-1911 grip angle.

For me, there were three things that pushed me to the Pardini:
* I have small hands and was happy to not have the magazine inside the grip
* Pardini USA in Tampa has sales, parts and service. FWB was a bit of an unknown
* Watch some ISSF videos on youtube. 99% of competitors shoot Pardinis. Even the German olympic team, with Walther GSP and SSP in country, shoot the Italian Pardini

One bonus reason that doesn't affect me:
* You can swap barrels on the Pardini and make it into a .32

I was able to overcome the Connecticut laws with an Olympic Pistol exemption. It is not easy, but it is possible. 

Anyway, there is no bad choice here, just two great pistols.

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Post by orpheoet 12/8/2020, 8:14 pm

My Pardini has been extremely reliable with a wide variety of SV ammo and I am not the type of shooter to obsess over cleaning. On the subject of recoil control the Pardini has essentially 2 systems in place to mitigate recoil. The 13 rubber O rings in the bolt and more importantly the weights in the end of the barrel housing. There is a great deal of tweaking possible with spring placement and steel or tungsten weights. The way I have mine setup the sights/dot drop right back into the black.
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