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S&W Model 41 - FTE when cold?

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Post by corsara 12/5/2020, 4:16 pm

My S&W Model 41 (vintage, made in 1958) was having intermittent problems extracting (ejecting?) spent cases.  I thought that dropping in a Volquartsen Exact Edge extractor has a good chance fixing my problems based on forum knowledge.  Bought one, disassembled the bolt, cleaned everything perfectly (seemed like it was never cleaned before), dropped in the brand new extractor.  Now the gun fails to extract again, but only the first 1 or 2 shots in any given session (spent case stays in the chamber, have to pry it out with a screwdriver).  Since I religiously clean my guns after every session, I assumed it might be due to the cleaning.  However, just last night after dealing with the initial stuck case, it was extracting after that without a problem.  Then I set it aside and shot another gun for half an hour, when I returned to the 41---same thing, the first case didn't extract and had to be pried out.  Any thoughts?

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Post by REConley 12/5/2020, 4:45 pm

I have always had my 41s failing to extract after cleaning. I assume there is a stiction issue with CLP and it has to be burned out of the chamber. After 10 rounds it almost always clears up and I do not see it again until the next cleaning. My standard practice ammo when I can buy it is CCI SV which does as described above, however CCI Select which is a little hotter about 100 FPS does not fail to extract. I have adopted a practice of of loading two clips with Select to fire after a cleaning. 

OTOH, there is the cold weather issue many have with SV ammo. The past two weeks since the weather dropped to the 20s here in the AM, the Aguila SV I was shooting takes 2 clips to get reliable and if I take a 10 minute break it starts all over again.
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Post by Slamfire 12/5/2020, 5:03 pm

I hope you replaced the extractor spring, that will prevent future stove piping.

This is a blow back action. One of the critical things about blow back actions is they need lubrication to break the friction between case and chamber. I know you have been taught otherwise by those who believe case lubrication unpredictably and dangerously raises pressures, but that is nonsense from a century old Army coverup of their single heat treat M1903 Springfields.At the time they were shoveling out these dangerous single heat treat actions, shooters were coating their bullets in grease. The American bullets of the era used cupronickle and fouled something horrible. But, if you coat the bullet in grease, with a dip and a twist, that grease coating made the cupronickle coating go away. Cans of axle grease were in every shooter's kit

S&W Model 41 - FTE when cold? AYarnP3



I shot cupronickle 303 British and it took weeks to dissolve the lumpy deposits. However when I gathered my courage and greased the bullets, no more lumpy fouling. Yippie! But, with all those burnt single heat treat receivers on the firing line, whenever an Army rifle blew up with Army ammunition, the Army blamed the grease!  The Army viewpoint was , their rifles were perfect, their ammunition was perfect, therefore it had to be the grease. And they developed quite a coverup story that has been repeated as gospel by  in-print gunwriters for more than a century.

Which only shows how little the in-print guys actually know. There was a lot of service ammunition issued with greased bullets by the Europeans, the Swiss, the Italians, the Austrians, the Serbians. What was common for three of these groups was that the ammunition was steel jacketed and the grease was on the bullet to prevent steel on steel contact. And trillions of these rounds were fired in WW1. However, the all knowing Army Ordnance Bureau heedlessly ignored what the Europeans were doing, to misdirect the blame, and of course, the guys you read in print, really don't know anything about firearms history or design, and just repeat what they have been told.

What you want in a blow back pistol is plenty of clearance between the case and chamber, a tight fit is absolutely wrong for reliable function. So that is test number one, does a case drop in the chamber?

Then, is your ammunition heavily waxed or is the wax hard?  Melvin Johnson, the designer of the Johnson Automatic Rifle has something to say about blowbacks:


Automatic Arms, their History, Development and Use
published 1941
 
Melvin M Johnson

 Certain weapons of the blowback and retarded blowback types require lubricated cases. It is perfectly obvious that lubrication of the ammunition facilitates functioning in automatic weapons,  provided the breech lock is designed to keep the breech substantially closed until the pressure has dropped to a safe limit. Where the breechblock moves back during the interval of critical pressure in any measurable degree, it is essential that the rear end of the cartridge case wall should be extremely rugged so as to withstand the pressure developed in the case without the support of the chamber wall.



The conventional .22 autoloading rifles and automatic pistols generally require a certain amount of lubrication on the cases. In these weapons the breechblock can actually move back some what before the bullet is out of the muzzle. However, the case is sufficiently strong to stand a small amount of movement prior to the time when the pressure has dropped to a safe limit. Incidentally, a very large percentage of the malfunctions experienced with .22 caliber automatics could be avoided by the use of a little extra lubrication in the form of oil or grease on the cartridges or applied to the magazine body. The application of a light oil to the magazine tube or its equivalent is especially helpful in cold weather, when the grease on the greased cartridges is usually to hard to be effective.

So, lets say it is cold. Wipe off the wax on the cartridges, wipe the de waxed cartridges with an oily rag. Load rounds, and shoot them. Do they extract?

I regularly oil my waxed .22lr, I can tell sealing is better by the sound and better ejection of the cartridge. Incidentally, the bore comes out cleaner as oil is blow up the tube, dissolving wax along the way. However, in cold weather, that wax just gummed up everything, oiled or not.

In a blowback weapon, you want as little case to chamber friction as possible. A tight chamber will grip the case, and instead of the thing being blown out of the chamber, the case may stay put. Given cold wax deposits in a tight chamber, function will only be decreased.

You cannot change the thickness or hardness of your brass, but brass that is hard, retracts quickly as the pressure curve drops, is more desirable than brass that clings to the chamber.

I know for the older types, this is contrary to everything you have read from in print gunwriters, (such as P.O Ackley)  but these guys really don't know gun design and history.

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Post by bruce martindale 12/6/2020, 9:02 am

Old M41s had tighter chambers; s&w adjusted my dad's '69 to function with cci. They were originally set for Remington. Oil as mentioned is critical.

Mainspring strength, if weak, results in light or intermittent reports

Ammo matters: what are you using? Aguilla is excellent but oversize.

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Post by Slamfire 12/6/2020, 11:18 am

bruce martindale wrote:Old M41s had tighter chambers; s&w adjusted my dad's '69 to function with cci. They were originally set for Remington. Oil as mentioned is critical.

Mainspring strength, if weak, results in light or intermittent reports

Ammo matters: what are you using? Aguilla is excellent but oversize.

You are absolutely right about mainsprings. I can tell the M41 has a less robust ignition system than my Ruger MKII's. Those Rugers will ignite cartridges that regularly stove pipe in my M41. And, I have replaced the M41 mainspring with mainsprings that were sold as NOS on ebay. Your firing pin, and your recoil spring, extractor spring, recoil spring, and mainspring are probably all 60 plus years old. Time to replace with new ones.

I don't know of a source of new M41 mainsprings, can anyone suggest?

And, I blow out the firing pin channel with compressed air On my M41, when I clean the pistol and lubricate my M41 I have a habit of over oiling, bad I know, but I do believe that the elbow is the drip point. I found the firing pin channel filled with oil and that oil reduced the impact power of the firing pin. Now, I push the firing pin forward, stick an air gun nozzle on the firing pin tip, and blow compressed air down the firing pin channel. The Ruger MKI and MKII are easy peasey in removing the firing pin and wiping it off. Incidentally, I also regularly remove the firing pin on my 1911 and clean the channel and wipe the firing pin and spring off.

I have never had a stuck bullet due to poor ignition, but I know I have seen low shots, stove pipes, and failures to eject because the ignition system on my M41 does not reliably ignite all rim fire ammunition. That's the breaks for that great trigger. You know, I have been ridiculed and called a liar when I reported on Rimfire Central the problems i had with my stainless steel Ruger MKII. Doggone firing pin!

The rear end of the firing pin was soft, and it peened.

S&W Model 41 - FTE when cold? 1sIb4O8

The firing pin peened enough to actually stick in the bolt

S&W Model 41 - FTE when cold? 4zsbwBX


but I could get the thing going again by filing down the sides with the file on my Leatherman tool. But eventually, the pistol misfired, stove piped, weak recoil, because the rear of the firing pin was about flush with the bolt. The geniuses on Rimfire Central believed that if the rim was struck, then the primer cake would automatically and perfectly ignite, and  that Ruger firing pins did not mushroom at the back. Well this shows how how lacking many are in understanding the importance of a strong ignition system and consistent, hard, fast firing pin strikes.

Once I figured out I needed to replace the firing pin, I did , and I purchased a tool steel Volquartsen Ruger firing pin. I don't want soft stainless steels in this application, I want a tough steel, and I don't need rust resistance. So a tool steel firing pin is just fine.

S&W Model 41 - FTE when cold? KlZQzgi

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Post by corsara 12/6/2020, 12:03 pm

Thank you all for the detailed suggestions and tips.  I really appreciate it!  

Let me answer some questions and provide more info:

+ I did not replace the extractor spring, nor the main spring or firing pin spring.  I'm in Canada, and this could be very difficult to source, especially right now with the closed borders due to Covid.  I'm hoping to try other things until importing becomes easier.

+ I have and use only CCI Standard Velocity as this is what I've stocked up before the ammo shortages.  I do have some CCI Mini-mags and Blazers, although I've never dared firing them in the 41 as I've been told they can damage the gun.

Some questions on the other suggested remedies:

1) Oiling the ammo:  I've never done that, but not out of fear.  I'm convinced it's not such a big deal regarding pressures, especially in rimfire.  Is it as simple as lightly soaking a rag with Hoppe's 9 oil, and wiping the ammo with it?  Alternatively, is the suggestion to put a drop of oil on the first round of each mag (the first round to fire)?

2) A tight chamber:  I do think the chamber is slightly too tight.  Dropping a round sometimes drops all the way, sometimes only 2/3-rds of the way, although after being pushed in, any subsequent test result in the round dropping all the way.  Is there any way to ever so slightly polish/widen the chamber safely without involving a gunsmith?  

3) Although I've never fired a high-velocity round in the 41, I wonder if firing a single one at the beginning of each session is worth exploring as an option?  Something like firing a CCI mini-mag just once at the beginning of each shooting session.  Does this carry the risk of damaging the gun if it's just one round per session?  And do you think this might potentially help "get the gun going for the shooting session"?

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Post by Wobbley 12/6/2020, 12:42 pm

If firing 22 HV would damage the gun, S&W would have long ago have stated that firing HV ammo would void the warranty.  They once sold the 46 which was nearly identical with interchangeable parts for the purpose of field shooting.   ALL THAT SAID, S&W DO build the 41 to function with SV ammo.  The problem is that not all SV ammo makers build their ammo to function in S&W 41s.  

So occasional use of HV ammo isn’t likely to hurt your 41.  And by HV ammo here I’m NOT talking about “Hyper velocity” ammo like stingers.
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Post by bruce martindale 12/6/2020, 12:55 pm

I put oil on my thumb and first fingertips then load the magazine. This gives the best uniform coating. 

Try different ammo to see whatvworks before making modifications. 

I also hear the new Clark 22 barrels are excellent.

Skip the hv, if anything, some get velocity with undersize bullets and the associated leading. Could gum up the chamber with soot adding to you misery.

Have bent 25 cal 2" long rifle brush handy to clean the chamber. Tape the rear half sonit doesn't bite you. 

Make sure to clean bbl with Kroil and a tight patch on a jag. Barrel deposits raise chamber pressure and retard extraction.

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Post by Slamfire 12/6/2020, 8:16 pm


+ I did not replace the extractor spring, nor the main spring or firing pin spring.  I'm in Canada, and this could be very difficult to source, especially right now with the closed borders due to Covid.  I'm hoping to try other things until importing becomes easier.

Wish I knew part sources other than lurking on ebay and paying a ridiculous amount of money for "NOS" parts that may probably are old stock but not new. However, every spring that you can find, you ought to replace. Springs take sets and loose tension and it is not to the good. Sort of like having 20 year old tires on a vehicle, no matter what you think about them, they are going to fail. Their time is past.


  Oiling the ammo:  I've never done that, but not out of fear.  I'm convinced it's not such a big deal regarding pressures, especially in rimfire.  Is it as simple as lightly soaking a rag with Hoppe's 9 oil, and wiping the ammo with it?  Alternatively, is the suggestion to put a drop of oil on the first round of each mag (the first round to fire)?       

Good, no fear. Obviously you are not well educated in nonsense.    lol!    Go over to http://www.jouster2.com/forums/forum.php and find out what adamant, ideological, ignorance is like on the subject of lubricated cases.  Just post lubricated case experiences and they will be all over you. Hatcher said this, Hatcher said that, etc. Your boots will be full of the liquids they dose you with. 

At a Regional this year, an All Guard shooter (with Pres 100 patch) was wiping off the crusty old wax on Eley red box. I have no idea who old the stuff was, but the wax looked white and crusty. If you have ever shot match 22lr, you know that it is greasy. That's the level of greasy your want. The shooter was wiping the wax off with an oily patch, to remove the wax, and to add oil to the outside of the case. The cases were not dripping. His patch was not dripping either. Does  not take much oil to provide lubrication. I don't know if this is in the thin film boundary lubrication region or not.

2) A tight chamber:  I do think the chamber is slightly too tight.  Dropping a round sometimes drops all the way, sometimes only 2/3-rds of the way, although after being pushed in, any subsequent test result in the round dropping all the way.  Is there any way to ever so slightly polish/widen the chamber safely without involving a gunsmith? 

Well, I don't know if the constriction is due to the bullet or not. I am more concerned about the case friction than bullet size. So, heck if I know. It is my opinion that if the case is chambered, the bullet fired, then if there is properly clearances between case and chamber at the start, then the case should not drag, and should be ejected.

Take a look at the chamber and see if it is nice and shiny. No machining rings, you want a mirror finish.

I do not have the skills to risk trying to polish a chamber. And, I know there are a number of different chambering reamers out there, and I don't know the difference between any. Volquartsen does. Clark probably does to.

Although I've never fired a high-velocity round in the 41, I wonder if firing a single one at the beginning of each session is worth exploring as an option?  Something like firing a CCI mini-mag just once at the beginning of each shooting session.  Does this carry the risk of damaging the gun if it's just one round per session?  And do you think this might potentially help "get the gun going for the shooting session"?

If this was a TV show, they would break out the medical defibrillator and shock the patient. Writers love that deterministic, electrical, back from the dead, stuff. In real life, an elderly man toppled in the local library, I saw the EMT's put the guy on a stretcher, and zap him several times. He stayed dead. Was not like the movies at all. Disappointing after all the resuscitation scenes I have watched on TV and the movies. Maybe the EMT got it wrong, and needed a movie writer to get it right.

I think firing a HV round in an attempt to shock the patient back to life falls into the hopeful thinking category. Your pistol works on the equal and opposite theory of Newton's laws. If the forces are correctly balanced, the pistol will function. If however, your pistol only works with HV, then, shoot HV.

I remember talking to S&W about this and they were not worried about HV ammunition in a M41, but all the Bullseye Shooter's I know warned against HV. Don't know if this is like lubricated cases or not. The fear mongering on lubricated cases (Hatcher said this, and Hatcher said that)  caused generations of shooters never to try firing lubricated cases because they were told not to, and were too fearful to try.

Still, I am shooting CCI SV in my M41.

Having a M46

S&W Model 41 - FTE when cold? R6qrx7C



S&W Model 41 - FTE when cold? CVBKIry


I can say it was not built to be a rugged, rocking busting pistol. S&W omitted non functional but nice machining to reduce cost.




S&W Model 41 - FTE when cold? DYxKXBV





S&W Model 41 - FTE when cold? WCJB2zY


There might be some difference in the trigger mechanism, as least that is what I was told, but I have not gotten in there because the trigger is just fine. These pistols are just as accurate as a M41 and far rarer.

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Post by Ed Hall 12/7/2020, 7:44 am

Slamfire wrote:. . .
There might be some difference in the trigger mechanism, as least that is what I was told, but I have not gotten in there because the trigger is just fine. These pistols are just as accurate as a M41 and far rarer.
The 41 has a "trigger pull adjusting lever" that looks like a tiny handsaw blade with very coarse teeth. I have a 46 that has had the barrel modified to work with 41 slides.

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Post by Jack H 12/7/2020, 1:04 pm

corsara wrote:My S&W Model 41 (vintage, made in 1958) was having intermittent problems extracting (ejecting?) spent cases.  I thought that dropping in a Volquartsen Exact Edge extractor has a good chance fixing my problems based on forum knowledge.  Bought one, disassembled the bolt, cleaned everything perfectly (seemed like it was never cleaned before), dropped in the brand new extractor.  Now the gun fails to extract again, but only the first 1 or 2 shots in any given session (spent case stays in the chamber, have to pry it out with a screwdriver).  Since I religiously clean my guns after every session, I assumed it might be due to the cleaning.  However, just last night after dealing with the initial stuck case, it was extracting after that without a problem.  Then I set it aside and shot another gun for half an hour, when I returned to the 41---same thing, the first case didn't extract and had to be pried out.  Any thoughts?

I see this first round, maybe two, cycle weaker in more than one gun.  I always thought it was due to a relative temperature/expansion thing.  First round heats things up a little. 
Then there is Wolf or SK ammo that cycles weak always.  And that bad run of CCI SV.
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Post by bruce martindale 12/7/2020, 7:24 pm

First round also has to overcome  more upward pressure on the slide due to 2nd round. Is that slowing things down?

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Post by Slamfire 12/7/2020, 9:24 pm

bruce martindale wrote:First round also has to overcome  more upward pressure on the slide due to 2nd round. Is that slowing things down?

Can the S&W M41 fire out of battery?  A weak firing pin strike would cause ignition issues and squibs. But, if the round fires, and pressures are normal,  and the magazine spring is normal, I don't see stack pressure making a difference. Most likely he would get a failure to feed.

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Post by Guest 12/8/2020, 9:36 am

Don't know the history of your pistol but mine started having the same issue some yesrs ago . In my case the pistol was probably around 100k rounds . What was found was that the bolt ( firing pin extractor block in the slide )had battered some against the barrel . This allowed the bolt (slide ) to move forward enough for the extractor to move out slightly in the angled grove in the barrel. The extractor now was beyond the case rim which meant it was now reliable . The fix.....New bolt .

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Post by corsara 12/8/2020, 10:10 am

Went to the range last night.  First thing I tried was a brush (bent at 90 degrees so I can easily stick it in)---didn't help, still extraction issues on the first fired round (stayed in the chamber, not extracted).  Then I started putting a drop of oil on top round of the mag....but then I started having another issue, so I don't know if the drop of oil worked.  The new issues were that at some point the mag won't come out, had to pry it out.  Then the slide lock & ejector would misbehave---locking slide open even if there are still rounds in the mag, etc.   I usually clean my guns after EVERY session, but I didn't clean this gun since I started having the issues (probably about 200 rounds ago), so I thought it might have gummed up since then, causing the problems.  Probably lack of slide rails lubrication too?  This morning I opened it up and cleaned it very well, and I'll try it again tonight.  However, I noticed what appears like a tiny crack on the slide stop/ejector (wish I took a photo, will do next time I disassemble it).  Hmmmmmmmmmmm..............................is this gun falling apart....???  :'(

dware wrote:Don't know the history of your pistol but mine started having the same issue some yesrs ago . In my case  the pistol was probably around 100k rounds . What was found was that the bolt ( firing pin extractor block in the slide )had battered some against the barrel .  This allowed the bolt (slide ) to move forward enough for the extractor to move out slightly in the angled grove in the barrel. The extractor now was beyond the case rim which meant it was now reliable .  The fix.....New bolt .

Hmm...that would be so hard to find in Canada.  Are you saying that you had to replace the whole slide, or just the bolt part (the piece of metal that houses the firing pin)?

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Post by mtpistol 12/8/2020, 11:13 am

corsara wrote:My S&W Model 41 (vintage, made in 1958) was having intermittent problems extracting (ejecting?) spent cases.  I thought that dropping in a Volquartsen Exact Edge extractor has a good chance fixing my problems based on forum knowledge.  Bought one, disassembled the bolt, cleaned everything perfectly (seemed like it was never cleaned before), dropped in the brand new extractor.  Now the gun fails to extract again, but only the first 1 or 2 shots in any given session (spent case stays in the chamber, have to pry it out with a screwdriver).  Since I religiously clean my guns after every session, I assumed it might be due to the cleaning.  However, just last night after dealing with the initial stuck case, it was extracting after that without a problem.  Then I set it aside and shot another gun for half an hour, when I returned to the 41---same thing, the first case didn't extract and had to be pried out.  Any thoughts?
Corsara,

Your description above  closely matches my experience with my 2019 S&W M41 PC model.   I was leaving the pistol and ammunition secured in a cold garage all day, then going to the range for competition shooting events.   Base on feedback from experts on this web site, I took an incremental approach to diagnosing and resolving the issue.  My pistol is now shooting very reliably.   

Here is my approach and corrective actions.

- 'Dirty' Chamber - Step 1:  A round should fall smoothly into, and out of, the chamber without resistance or encouragement (by gravity alone).  Mine did not. 
  - Before cleaning, the chamber looked clean (by looking at chamber with a light at end of the barrel), and a swab would pass through cleanly - but did not pass the plop test.  I scrub brushed just the chamber (not the rest of the barrel) with a slightly oversized brass brush and hoppes #9 solvent until it passed the plop test (took about 10 minutes).  
  -I did no burnishing or other chamber adjustments to achieve a frictionless ability of a round to fall into and out of the chamber.
  - It seems like I can shoot quite a few rounds between cleanings.  I have performed the benchtop plop test between shooting sessions, without cleaning, and 300 rounds seems to be the number where resistance to the plop test begins to be noticeable.  At that point, a routine cleaning seems to restore a frictionless insertion and extraction of the round (I perform the plop test after every cleaning to ensure positive results).  
  - I am careful about leaving too much oil in the chamber after cleaning, as that can impact the plop test. 

- Magazine Manufacturing Defects - Step 2:  Following cleaning above, there were still occasions when a round would not eject cleanly (stove piping).   I numbered the magazines to see if one (or more) of the magazines were contributing to 'stove piping'.   
  - At the range I set aside the magazine after a stove pipe FTE.   Quickly I discovered there was one magazine in my original inventory which was causing stove piping about 15% of the time.   This was a tricky thing to discover, because it appeared to occur randomly for the defective magazine, it was one of several in my inventory that I was using on a random basis, and I was only shooting 5 rounds at a time per match format.   
  - To get the required number of working magazines, I selected a reputable on-line retailer, and bought 3 magazines.  I tested them for function at the range, and returned the ones that did not work, until I had the number I needed that worked reliably.   
  - If I were to do it again, to save time and effort, I would buy twice as many as I needed, and return the ones that would not eject / feed reliably or were extras.   
  - Defective magazines was a surprisingly large percentage like 40%.  The magazines did not have FTE failures at the same rate - but due to my competition objectives, I set my requirement at 100 rounds through a clean chamber with 0 FT Eject.
  - Thinking about it afterwards, it kind of made sense to me:  I have a $1000+ pistol, and a $20 mass produced stamped magazine: which is more likely to be out of tolerance?

Final thoughts
- I think it was important to resolve the issues in the order above, because it turned out that there were multiple-separate root causes, which would have taken more time to resolve all at once.   
- I did the 'lube' the ammo, or the first round on top of the magazine.   It seemed to help, but also seemed like a work around, which would complicate competitive shooting cadences.
  - I would guess 22 SV ammo looses a little velocity when cold (like freezing in my case), as a contributing factor.  I buy CCI SV by the 500 round box to get the same batches, and sent ammo samples to CCI for testing.  The samples which I sent tested out within tolerance - at room temperature I would assume.   I'll continue to watch temperatures as a function of reliability.
- I have purchased but not installed a Volquartsen Exact Edge extractor, as I was able to resolve my issues without it.  I'm keeping it as a spare in case of future need.  I understand there are installation tolerances which need to be addressed to ensure reliable function - but that is well outside of my current experience (but should be considered as a possible 3rd root cause going forward).

I hope this helps,

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Post by corsara 12/8/2020, 8:04 pm

mtpistol wrote:

I hope this helps,

Thank you so much for the detailed writeup!  It is actually very helpful to know what other people have gone through.  

I just came back from the range tonight.  Armed with a meticulously cleaned gun, and also ammo rolled into an oily rag.  Well - no more extraction problems, not even a single fault!  However, I only shot 6 rounds....because I have another nasty problem.  Like I mentioned earlier, the slide stop/extractor is cracked, and even though it is still visually holding it together, pretty sure it's not acting correctly.  After a few rounds, it just gets stuck, either in the open or closed position.  For example, without magazine, pulling the slide actually locks it open, as if there's an empty mag.  I don't know.... And it sucks, because it will be so difficult to find one in Canada.   Here's a photo, you can see the crack:

S&W Model 41 - FTE when cold? 41-crack

corsara

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Post by Wobbley 12/8/2020, 9:33 pm

That could be welded using TIG.  Where in Canada are you?
Wobbley
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Post by corsara 12/8/2020, 10:11 pm

Wobbley wrote:That could be welded using TIG.  Where in Canada are you?

Interesting idea!!!  Never tig welded before though Sad  I wonder if I can just mail it to someone to weld it for me, hmm.  I'm in the GTA in Ontario.  

Below is a photo of both sides. In this position (no mag) the slide should freely ride forward and close.  However, 3 out of 5 times it catches on the slide stop.   Perhaps this is happening due to the crack, or perhaps a case was stuck there during my extraction issues, and bent the lip up.  Looking at it closely in person, although my first instinct is to slightly grind it, I think it might be actually better to bend the lip a bit more, which will provide the tiny clearance it needs.  Thoughts?

S&W Model 41 - FTE when cold? 41-slide-stop-both-sides-noted

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Post by Slamfire 12/9/2020, 9:23 am

mtpistol wrote:Corsara,


- Magazine Manufacturing Defects - Step 2:  Following cleaning above, there were still occasions when a round would not eject cleanly (stove piping).   I numbered the magazines to see if one (or more) of the magazines were contributing to 'stove piping'.   
  - At the range I set aside the magazine after a stove pipe FTE.   Quickly I discovered there was one magazine in my original inventory which was causing stove piping about 15% of the time.   This was a tricky thing to discover, because it appeared to occur randomly for the defective magazine, it was one of several in my inventory that I was using on a random basis, and I was only shooting 5 rounds at a time per match format.   
  - To get the required number of working magazines, I selected a reputable on-line retailer, and bought 3 magazines.  I tested them for function at the range, and returned the ones that did not work, until I had the number I needed that worked reliably.   
  - If I were to do it again, to save time and effort, I would buy twice as many as I needed, and return the ones that would not eject / feed reliably or were extras.   
  - Defective magazines was a surprisingly large percentage like 40%.  The magazines did not have FTE failures at the same rate - but due to my competition objectives, I set my requirement at 100 rounds through a clean chamber with 0 FT Eject.
  - Thinking about it afterwards, it kind of made sense to me:  I have a $1000+ pistol, and a $20 mass produced stamped magazine: which is more likely to be out of tolerance?

Very interesting. Sort of like an electrical intermittent. Comes and goes and no one can figure out what causes it.  This is only a guess, but if the round was knocked off the bolt face by the follower, or the cartridge below, then you would experience a stove pipe. And, that could happen if the round was a little long, the magazine held itself, or the round, a little high. And all impossible to gauge for the shooter.

I do want to comment that cartridge feed, the speed, the angle, are all very carefully examined in modern firearms. There are a lot of variables involved, and rimmed cartridges are one of the worst cartridge types for magazine feed.

I looked on ebay for a Model 41 slide release, none currently listed. But, parts pop up at unpredictable times, if you put a search reminder, you might be able to buy one when one comes available.

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